tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post1941759431918114510..comments2024-01-17T03:54:39.225-05:00Comments on Hieing to Kolob: Counterpoint and ExcommunicationBored in Vernalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-61571024839616770572007-07-17T00:44:00.000-04:002007-07-17T00:44:00.000-04:00Please remember that the Lord blesses His servants...Please remember that the Lord blesses His servants with the Spirit to run His Church. Normally, they will be in tune with Him and will only choose excommunication when it is as He directs. How could He continue to bless members with His Spirit if they continue to openly reject His Spirit with choices of evil? He promises the Spirt to them as long as they choose righteousness. Excommunication removes the promise of the Spirit, and actually blesses the excommunicant with the ability to see the loss and then make a choice to repent to again receive the promised Spirit.<br><br>Only the Lord can see fit to excommunicate. It is a blessing.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-22562795545906303472006-11-10T21:27:00.000-05:002006-11-10T21:27:00.000-05:00I assume you agree with my larger point: excommuni...<i>I assume you agree with my larger point: excommunication does have a legitimate place.</i><br><br>Yes, I would personally agree that it does have a place, in special circumstances.<br><br><i>I'm starting to realize (OK, I'm slow) that the real question here is whether excommunication for heresy ala The September Six is ever appropriate. I'll repeat what I said in my previous comment - I think people are usually better off in the church than out of it.</i><br><br>I totally agree.Steve M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/06261411264695719660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-90728514093807206612006-11-10T13:24:00.000-05:002006-11-10T13:24:00.000-05:00This extreme example does nothing to justify Gay B...<i>This extreme example does nothing to justify Gay Blanchard's excommunication.</i><br><br>Steve,<br><br>That isn't an extreme example, that is the norm. The majority of people who get ex'ed, at least in Utah, are fundie Mormons. The church exes hundreds of them a year and nobody cares. And since you agreed that of course the church should draw a line in those cases, I assume you agree with my larger point: excommunication does have a legitimate place. Once we agree on that, then the only remaining question is when to apply it.<br><br>I'm starting to realize (OK, I'm slow) that the real question here is whether excommunication for heresy ala The September Six is ever appropriate. I'll repeat what I said in my previous comment - I think people are usually better off in the church than out of it.Mark IVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-79249265262244493422006-11-10T12:25:00.000-05:002006-11-10T12:25:00.000-05:00Thank you, Steve.Thank you, Steve.Bored in Vernalhttp://tokolob.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-77118492940736173572006-11-10T11:05:00.000-05:002006-11-10T11:05:00.000-05:00I see no reason why the church should provide a pl...<i>I see no reason why the church should provide a place for a polygamist to recruit more wives, for example, so I'm glad the church draws a line.</i><br><br>Of course there should be a line. But I don't think that somebody taking a slightly different doctrinal stance (even if they express this stance in public) is in any way similar to a polygamist hunting for plural wives in the ward. This extreme example does nothing to justify Gay Blanchard's excommunication.<br><br><i>the way I see excommunication, it is an opportunity to 'start over'.</i><br><br>This is what repentance is about. This is what the Church (supposedly) is about. I just have a hard time seeing why it's necessary to kick people like Gay Blanchard out of the kingdom in order for them to 'start over.' Don't we take the sacrament each week in order to 'start over'?<br><br><i>Are you aware that the whole plan of salvation involves being cut off from the presence of our Heavenly Father if we do not conform our lives to the laws and statutes of his kingdom? It has nothing to do with him being mean, it has to do with being able to abide a celestial law and to live according to his precepts. If someone cannot or will not do that, they are cut off because the foundation of his kingdom cannot tolerate the least degree of sin.</i><br><br>In that case, all of us should be excommunicated, because none of us even come close to 'abiding a celestial law.' Michael, according to your logic, none of us should be members of the Church.<br><br>It seems that this is what Gay Blanchard is talking about. We aren't saved by living a celestial law, because we'll always, always fall short of that law.<br><br>In any case, I don't see how Gay Blanchard, or others like her, could be seen as committing a grievous sin. Even if the Church leaders felt that she erred in doctrine, Joseph Smith himself said that a man should not be tried or kicked out of a church for erring in doctrine.Steve M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/06261411264695719660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-68833897892835365002006-11-09T19:25:00.000-05:002006-11-09T19:25:00.000-05:00It is hard for someone to get excommunicated. Exc...It is hard for someone to get excommunicated. Excommunication is always the last option... I highly doubt that Gay was excommunicated for her doctrinal misunderstanding and teaching. If people were excommunicated for misunderstanding and teaching incorrect doctrine the LDS church wound not exist. I would guess that pride had a lot to do with her excommunication and not looking to God for understanding. It sounds like she likes to teach her own doctrinal understanding and not Gods. Hopefully she will repent and come back into the fold...<br><br>cp - Vernal, UTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-51205795665433283562006-11-09T16:53:00.000-05:002006-11-09T16:53:00.000-05:00"I can't imagine a loving God that would ..."I can't imagine a loving God that would cut off children from Her or His presence."<br><br>amyb,<br><br>Are you aware that the whole plan of salvation involves being cut off from the presence of our Heavenly Father if we do not conform our lives to the laws and statutes of his kingdom? It has nothing to do with him being mean, it has to do with being able to abide a celestial law and to live according to his precepts. If someone cannot or will not do that, they are cut off because the foundation of his kingdom cannot tolerate the least degree of sin.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-76597403765175058062006-11-09T12:25:00.000-05:002006-11-09T12:25:00.000-05:00Johnna, Thanks for the link. It's an interest...Johnna, Thanks for the link. It's an interesting article with temple symbolism. It certainly explains more about Gay's beliefs than I was able to pick up during my one encounter with her. She also explains where she differs with Robinson. <br><br>Mark IV, I agree with Amyb that excommunication is a fear tactic. I believe there are other ways to make Church a safe place from predators and people seeking plural wives. Most other churches face problems of members who sin or do not conform, and yet don't resort to excommunication. The challenge is to find solutions which will benefit all involved--the institutional Church as well as the individual. I am <i>especially</i> against excommunications of sweet stay-at-home moms who may differ doctrinally in their opinions. (I'm thinking Gay, Janice Allred, etc.)<br><br>Anon,<br>I'm perfectly satisfied "starting over" through the process of repentance and taking the sacrament each week. Far to many who are given the "opportunity" of excommunication will never be rebaptized, and their families may feel the effects for generations.Bored in Vernalhttp://tokolob.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-71235031942239701542006-11-09T02:28:00.000-05:002006-11-09T02:28:00.000-05:00Gay Blanchard's article "Why Most Mormons...Gay Blanchard's article "Why Most Mormons are not Going to the Celestial Kingdom" is online <a href="http://www.mormonwomensforum.org/publication-archives-2/publication-archives/index-volume-9-number-2/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">as a pdf at Mormon Women's Forum</a>.Johnna Cornetthttp://www.mormonwomensforum.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-65972188237484371152006-11-08T18:30:00.000-05:002006-11-08T18:30:00.000-05:00the way I see excommunication, it is an opportunit...the way I see excommunication, it is an opportunity to 'start over'. You can leave the church, and begin again with fresh baptism. If you think about it this way (which I believe is the way it is intended) I think its a pretty cool thing.<br><br>That being said, its hard to see it that way in the moment, with all the emotions and peer shunning that tends to come. Maybe the church could just call it something else, and focus on teaching the principle to the members better so they would not see it as a 'kicking out' of our members?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-52070202379839873242006-11-08T18:09:00.000-05:002006-11-08T18:09:00.000-05:00amyb,No, I don't think the practice of excommu...amyb,<br><br>No, I don't think the practice of excommunication can be attributed to some flaw of Joseph Smith. Lots of churches used to practice it, they just don't much any more.<br><br>BiV, <br><br>Is it just excommunication, or do you object to official discipline in any form? I think some kind of official withdrawal of fellowship is good in some cases. I see no reason why the church should provide a place for a polygamist to recruit more wives, for example, so I'm glad the church draws a line. <br><br>While I agree with your judgement that people are usually better off in the church than out of it, I've seen a few really scary situations where a true predator viewed the ward as a happy hunting ground. There is no way the church should be expected to facilitate or tolerate their behavior.Mark IVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-70613097464341503872006-11-08T16:58:00.000-05:002006-11-08T16:58:00.000-05:00I think excommunication is an extremely unfortunat...I think excommunication is an extremely unfortunate outgrowth of Joseph Smith's intolerance for anyone disloyal to him.<br><br>I can't imagine a loving God that would cut off children from Her or His presence. Jesus spent his time among the sinners, he didn't kick them off His team.<br><br>Excommunication is used as a fear tactic to keep people in line, and makes the church as a whole an unsafe place, in my opinion. I would love to see it fade away like some other unfortunate teachings and practices have.AmyBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03326042701765132238noreply@blogger.com