tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post6673267251932914512..comments2024-01-17T03:54:39.225-05:00Comments on Hieing to Kolob: Playing the Devil's Advocate with Kevin Barney's Article on Heavenly MotherBored in Vernalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-12013976661971083062011-07-03T08:36:30.198-04:002011-07-03T08:36:30.198-04:00If the resurrection of Asherah is what Mormonism h...If the resurrection of Asherah is what Mormonism has come to, then it really has worked itself into an unholy mess (and one that is wholly unnecessary from a plain reading of the Bible). As far as the adoption of the names of God are concerned, the Bible-skeptics seem to willfully ignore contextualization (Psalm 95 is one example, you can see my thoughts here...http://martinofbrisbane.blogspot.com/2011/05/psalm-95.html). <br /><br />However, a bigger problem is the tendency to work from the symbol to the truth behind the symbol, which reverses a common Biblical meme (that the unseen Word of God can be seen as it bears fruit in real life, e,g, Genesis 1, John 1, Colossians 1:16). Thus, for example, some people seem able to work from a Christmas Tree backwards to some speculative outcome about a tree of life, and in so doing attempt to re-imagine monotheistic Judeao-Christian tradition as a corrupted form of paganism. Or, they imagine that God the Father must have a wife (because that's what earthly fathers have). At this point, you get into Dan Brown territory, and the ludicrous claim that True Christianity is actually full-blown Paganism. <br /><br />If that's where you find yourself, however you got there, you will find yourself in contention with the corpus of Biblical literature, and the contributions of John and (the alleged) Deutero-Isaiah in particular. For them, the truth (the Divine Logos) is not invested in a symbol, but it exists before all things, including the symbols (or words borrowed from surrounding cultures, even) that we use to comprehend that truth. The remarkable thing, though, is not that this Logos is there; it is that He became flesh and lived amongst us (John 1:14). Jesus Christ is not just some dude who bailed us out when we were in strife; He is the living embodiment of the Divine Truth/Word that brought the whole cosmos into being. (A cosmos that may, or may not, include an ontological Asherah.) That's why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God, and not Asherah. Why worship the creature, when you should be worshipping the Creator? If Mormonism is, as it's prophets claim, the restoration of True Christianity, then you would expect it to look something like the Christianity of the first Christians. But it doesn't. It looks more like the paganism that the Judeao-Christian tradition has persistently set itself against.Martin Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04657636697389745874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-82507819055700873282009-04-02T13:20:00.000-04:002009-04-02T13:20:00.000-04:00Not having read Barney's article, I found this a w...Not having read Barney's article, I found this a wonderful discussion (which makes me want to read it, though I don't know that I have sufficient background in Mormon scripture to do so) of attempts to recognize the Divine Feminine in modern religions by looking to ancient religions. And I think you identified the exact reasons why this often fails (at least at the high doctrinal level). It's unfortunate that Mormons are blanket-banned from addressing their Divine Mother in the same manner which they are allowed to address their Divine Father (and Brother?). Because of these doctrinal bans, I think works like Barney's are even more important—maybe this may change in the future.xJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944518104691406838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-90725841985958851202009-01-06T10:58:00.000-05:002009-01-06T10:58:00.000-05:00BiV,Kevin just pointed me to your article. While I...BiV,<BR/>Kevin just pointed me to your article. While I agree with you on the issue of praying to Heavenly Mother, there are other issues I do agree with Kevin on.<BR/><BR/>Blake's comment mentions the Deuteronomist's rejection of Asherah, but neglects to note Margaret Barker's view that the Northern Kingdom would have accepted her as goddess. In her Library of Congress/Joseph Smith Seminar speech, she discussed how the Deuteronomists actually removed Asherah worship from the temple (it used to have a Tree of Life), and compares the First Temple worship to Nephi's Vision of the Tree of Life. She directly tied Asherah/Mary to the Tree of Life, and Jesus as the fruit of the tree. <BR/>While Josiah and D rejected Asherah, there are some who would say it was Josiah who was apostate. Remember, he also destroyed the brazen snake of Moses, which Nephi's people often referenced as representative of Christ! There is no feeling of agreement between D and Nephi's people that the brazen serpent should be destroyed as an apostate idol. Why should there be an agreement on Asherah?rameumptomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16109035792711248691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-67975659275375890042009-01-05T22:44:00.000-05:002009-01-05T22:44:00.000-05:00Yeah, BiV, me too--sorry I didn't see this. Send ...Yeah, BiV, me too--sorry I didn't see this. Send it to me at editor at dialoguejournal dot com. If you hurry, I may be able to get it into the Summer issue.Kristinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801975801367100964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-55859059164193576562009-01-05T21:49:00.000-05:002009-01-05T21:49:00.000-05:00BiV, I'm terribly sorry that I didn't see this cri...BiV, I'm terribly sorry that I didn't see this critique until just now. I appreciate your careful reading of my paper, and taking it seriously enough to make such thoughtful comments. Needless to say, I disagree with your point of view, but I do appreciate it. You ought to submit this as a letter, or even a little article to Dialogue. They do call it "Dialogue" for a reason!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-15047914648410922812008-12-19T16:30:00.000-05:002008-12-19T16:30:00.000-05:00J G-W, thanks for a very insightful comment. I wi...J G-W, thanks for a very insightful comment. I will have to check out Orsi's book. I have been interested in the parallels between the Mormon Heavenly Mother and the Catholic Mary veneration.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-59223293914031795402008-12-19T13:50:00.000-05:002008-12-19T13:50:00.000-05:00I know I'm way behind the times in responding to t...I know I'm way behind the times in responding to this only now... I more or less agree with your critiques of Barney's piece.<BR/><BR/>However, have you ever read the book <I>The Madonna of 115th Street</I> by Robert Orsi? If not, I <I>highly</I> recommend it. It is an absolutely <I>amazing</I> history of the cult of the Virgin Mary among Italian Catholics in New York City, from the immigrants' arrival in the 1880s to the present.<BR/><BR/>There are many amazing insights to be gleaned in reading this study, but among them is the sense that among working-class, immigrant Italians there was a remarkable sense of belonging to a "Holy Family" that is -- to my Mormon sensibilities, shockingly Mormon. There was a very literal sense of familial connection to God that seems analogous to the Mormon notion of God's literal parenthood of us, and our literal ascension in the next life to a similar parental pattern. In the Italian Catholic context, the Virgin Mary had a very prominent, very tangible, powerful presence as a literal kind of Heavenly Mother.<BR/><BR/>Orsi further argues -- very persuasively, I think -- that Italian immigrant women <I>desperately needed this divine Mother figure to whom they could turn for help</I>, because they bore the heaviest, most grinding burdens in the mind-, body-, and soul-numbing realities of working class Italian life in the <I>fin-de-siecle</I>. Their ability to pray to -- and receive help from -- a "divine Mamma" made all the difference to these women and their families.<BR/><BR/>I couldn't help but think as I read this of a cartoon I saw in <I>Sunstone</I>, showing a desperate Mormon woman on her knees, her house falling apart around her, and asking plaintively, "Excuse me, but could I please talk to Mom?" <BR/><BR/>The cartoon made me laugh... But this is a real, serious thing isn't it? Even if we can't pray to her, doesn't it make a difference to know that she exists? And how much of the current silence around Heavenly Mother is really necessary for the sake of propriety, and how much is just due to the cultural crust of sexism, or the cultural fear that if Mormons talked more or sang more or sought greater light of revelation on Heavenly Mother, it would merely underline an uncomfortable, embarrassing kind of difference between us and the Evangelical Protestant culture that once tried so hard to stamp us out, and that we've made an uneasy, Devil's pact kind of peace with?John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-39022043133451564032008-12-05T16:30:00.000-05:002008-12-05T16:30:00.000-05:00"in light of the strict monotheism they adopted fr..."in light of the strict monotheism they adopted from Lehi's Jerusalem."<BR/><BR/>Eh, I don't think it was strictly monotheistic. Not until much later, if ever. <BR/><BR/>For example, Peter Hayman argues that Judaism never became monotheistic in the Journal of Jewish Studies, Spring 1991. <BR/><BR/>NitsavAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-37129880854663605742008-11-28T17:56:00.000-05:002008-11-28T17:56:00.000-05:00oh dear. I'm always sticking my foot in my mo...oh dear. I'm always sticking my foot in my mouth. Please keep commenting, M&M. I <I>live</I> for comments!Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-69391465678162896122008-11-28T16:55:00.000-05:002008-11-28T16:55:00.000-05:00I should have suspected it when M&M compliment...<I>I should have suspected it when M&M complimented me, though. </I><BR/><BR/>Uh, do you consider compliments from me a bad thing, BiV? I can certainly refrain from them in the future if that is the case....m_and_mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-37336676040760935362008-11-27T08:58:00.000-05:002008-11-27T08:58:00.000-05:00It's pretty amazing that someone just described me...It's pretty amazing that someone just described me as <I>orthodox</I>!! Maybe a first! I should have suspected it when M&M complimented me, though. <BR/><BR/>Seriously, though, AppleK, I understand your pain. It is good to have people exploring this issue in a scholarly way. The thing that frustrates me is that without official revelation on the subject, these types of explorations are doomed from the start. Also, I would rather save my worship for whatever true images of HM I can find, rather than those I know were condemned by OT prophets. <BR/><BR/>More apologies to Kevin. I am sure he will continue the good work and not be discouraged by this type of criticism.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-38193933221853375842008-11-27T08:23:00.000-05:002008-11-27T08:23:00.000-05:00Even though I thought your analysis was well done ...Even though I thought your analysis was well done and brought important insights into the discussion, it made me sad. I loved Barney's paper. Seeing discussions of Mother in Heaven of any kind are so rare and precious that the swift Orthodox broadside you provided I think discourages the discussion (despite your final softening) and pushes again to the background those few thoughtful attempts (even if flawed by mainstream standards) there are. I don't know if Mother in Heaven was Asherah, but I'm decorating my Christmas tree in her honor, and planting a tree to remember her. I've heard no other suggestions about how to honor her but silence. I find myself tired of that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-50355360396799800422008-11-24T14:11:00.000-05:002008-11-24T14:11:00.000-05:00"Latter-day Saints might better be served by imagi..."Latter-day Saints might better be served by imagining ways to evict paganism from their lives rather than reconceptualize it." I really appreciated this insight. Great article. I agree that it should be published.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-10866751159733714862008-11-24T13:46:00.000-05:002008-11-24T13:46:00.000-05:00I like to think that I believe the BofM to be more...I like to think that I believe the BofM to be more historical than most Mormons. If we really want to claim that Lehi, Nephi, Alma, etc were real historical people, I think we need to treat them as such. That means they were flawed people with flawed theologies who were doing their best at forming a theology with the little information they had. Furthermore, they perhaps stretched the truth and redesigned their narratives to fit their theological motivations. On the other hand, I think that attempting to locate the BofM characters into a specific historical locale is a waste of time.<BR/><BR/>My sweetheart doesn't arrive until later tonight.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-86290628107350904112008-11-24T10:58:00.000-05:002008-11-24T10:58:00.000-05:00Narrator, I'm glad you added this little tidbit--i...Narrator, I'm glad you added this little tidbit--it gives me more of an insight into your theology. At first I thought perhaps you were looking at the Book of Mormon from a skeptic's view--or at least that it wasn't strictly historical. But this comment changes things. Are you in fact a proponent of a historical view of the Book of Mormon?<BR/><BR/>And btw what are you doing typing comments in blogs when I thought you would be in the arms of your sweetheart by now?Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-87271284792343287082008-11-24T10:39:00.000-05:002008-11-24T10:39:00.000-05:00Let me further add that I believe that one of Chri...Let me further add that I believe that one of Christ's duties was to reveal the Father. While there are bits and pieces of a pluralistic divinity in the BofM prior to Christ's visit, I think most of those should be read as Nephite prophets trying to understand this concept in light of the strict monotheism they adopted from Lehi's Jerusalem. Joseph Smith's additions (as well various commentaries) are anachronistically trying to force a different theology on the Nephites - a theology which they just didn't have.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-28014920525865850602008-11-24T02:50:00.000-05:002008-11-24T02:50:00.000-05:00BiV,I have heard that chapter interpreted as actua...BiV,<BR/>I have heard that chapter interpreted as actually referring to the condescension of both Father and Son.m_and_mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-78352828033593018252008-11-23T23:19:00.000-05:002008-11-23T23:19:00.000-05:00I'd have to agree with Jon W. - the strength of Ba...I'd have to agree with Jon W. - the strength of Barney's argument is in his direct correlation of the brass serpent with Asherah worship in the pre-exilic temple and possibly among the patriarchs and their families. This avenue of thought should have been explored further.<BR/><BR/>Still not sure what to think of the article (beyond that I thought the ideas were cool), but thanks for the thoughtful and respectful exploration BiV!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02951055269663690048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-4062702092454182482008-11-23T21:23:00.000-05:002008-11-23T21:23:00.000-05:00Oh, no! You didn't give up! That means you misse...Oh, no! You didn't give up! That means you missed all the suggestions at the end on how to worship HM. Aw, Jacob.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-81645827338977923372008-11-23T21:08:00.000-05:002008-11-23T21:08:00.000-05:00Nice post BiV. The biggest problem I had with the...Nice post BiV. The biggest problem I had with the article (I got about half way through before giving up) was that in the absence of information about this "good" Asherah worship, it seems we are free to dream it up to be whatever we want it to be. Kevin seemed to be conjecturing in this space a lot.Jacob Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17593414463239223580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-35311769119373993232008-11-23T20:54:00.000-05:002008-11-23T20:54:00.000-05:00Narrator--An interesting view which holds lots of ...Narrator--<BR/>An interesting view which holds lots of possibilities.<BR/><BR/>For my readers, here is the passage in question, from the 1830 edition. Words which have been modified are in brackets. Added words are in bold italics. Verse numbers added for ease of comparison. Changes in punctuation and capitalization are not noted.<BR/><BR/>1 Ne 11:13...and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was [exceeding] fair and white.<BR/><BR/>11:14 And it came to pass that I saw the Heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he [saith] unto me, Nephi, what beholdest thou?<BR/><BR/>11:15 And I [saith] unto him, a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.<BR/><BR/>11:16 And he [saith] unto me, Knowest thou [condescention] of God?<BR/><BR/>11:17 And I said unto him, I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.<BR/><BR/>11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin [which] thou seest, is the mother of <B><I>the Son of</I></B> God, after the manner of <B><I>the</I></B> flesh.<BR/><BR/>11:19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the spirit; and after [that] she had been carried away in the spirit for the space of a time, the angel spake unto me, saying, look!<BR/><BR/>11:20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.<BR/><BR/>11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the <B><I>Son of the</I></B> Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?<BR/><BR/>11:22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Does this interpretation have any support among other Mormon writers?Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-24972671062475761832008-11-23T20:08:00.000-05:002008-11-23T20:08:00.000-05:00This view fits better with the chapter as a whole,...<I>This view fits better with the chapter as a whole, the condescension of God being the demonstration by the Father of his love for the world by sending his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually I strongly disagree here. I believe the chapter is about the condescension of God as Jesus. The original 1830 BofM clearly portrays God condescending and being born of a woman. Joseph Smith made the "son of" additions in the 1840 edition, which I believe distort the original intent of Nephi's writing.<BR/><BR/>Instead of<BR/>Tree=Jesus<BR/>Fruit=Eternal Life<BR/><BR/>it should be<BR/>Tree+Fruit=God becoming man (mother of God + God become flesh)<BR/>Fruit=Source of eternal life.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-67755378312941197902008-11-23T14:10:00.000-05:002008-11-23T14:10:00.000-05:00BiV, please repent of not banning Jared... :)BiV, please repent of not banning Jared... :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-176777106445786522008-11-23T13:19:00.000-05:002008-11-23T13:19:00.000-05:00Really, I don't know what I would do if I weren't ...Really, I don't know <I>what</I> I would do if I weren't called to repentance regularly on my blog!Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-38294138047827483082008-11-23T10:47:00.000-05:002008-11-23T10:47:00.000-05:00BinV said: Although, truth be told, I will admit t...BinV said: Although, truth be told, I will admit to praying to a Heavenly Mother in private under certain circumstances, it is nonetheless a practice which might lead you to the wrong side of the Stake President's desk.<BR/><BR/>Being on the wrong side of the Stake President's desk is certainly undesirable, however, grieving the Spirit of the Lord so that He is slow to hear our prayers should be more of a concern. D&C 101:7-8Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com