tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post8872856221660624690..comments2024-01-17T03:54:39.225-05:00Comments on Hieing to Kolob: Beds and TemplesBored in Vernalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-25000018958761081752008-07-02T09:19:00.000-04:002008-07-02T09:19:00.000-04:00I am not FLDS or LDS or even religious at all for ...I am not FLDS or LDS or even religious at all for that matter but I have a need, no, a duty, as an American to post a message here. What has been done to the families in Texas is an OUTRAGE! I would say that I am shocked but as I see our rights being violated on a whim daily here in Tennessee, I can't say I am suprised, but I am notheless ENRAGED! When I first heard the story on the news, I did what I always do and researched it myself. Since the children were taken I spent countless hours on the internet, read two books and made several phone calls so I could form my own informed opinion. These women seem to be excellent mothers that other Americans only wish they could be. The children seem happy, well behaved and well mannered. The sheltered life they choose is for the sole purpose of protecting thier innocent children from this sick and twisted country we call home. Idiots like Nancy Grace with her big mouth and closed minded bigotry make me sick! I am sorry this has happened. I can only hope these families can return to some form of normality and the children are not permenantly scarred. I personally know of Babtists that beat their wives and children, Catholics that molest children and Pentecostal snake handlers that place a copperhead in a babies hands. Why don't we just round up all the children of all these religions based on the acts of a few? While you are at it Big Brother, you might want to grab the children of Muslims since we know they are ALL breeding terrorists! It is a disgrace and I really wish the people of this country would stop and think how close we are all getting to reliving Nazi Germany right here in the good ol' US.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-52881502013517067632008-06-30T11:18:00.000-04:002008-06-30T11:18:00.000-04:00Thanks for this post.. very beautiful song.. But w...Thanks for this post.. very beautiful song.. But where is the rest of it?? The Whole song is about 8 or 10 minutes long I believe. anyways thanks again. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-34662971530701264222008-06-30T11:16:00.000-04:002008-06-30T11:16:00.000-04:00To anonymous alice... I have something to say to y...To anonymous alice... I have something to say to you. How about looking deeper into things and researching before you jump head first in to something you know NOTHING about! All those accusations against Warren are false.. If you were really looking for the truth you would see that those girls are making a big scene just so they will get attention. It's amazing how so many people believe everything they hear instead of trying to find out the real truth first. I am sure you would be very upset if someone started a big ol' rumor about you and you knew you didn't do it. Just think this over. It might help a little if you have a clue what you are digging your self into before you dig.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-43629062352425268672008-05-09T19:40:00.000-04:002008-05-09T19:40:00.000-04:00Great post! I am not FLDS, I am a Reform Mormon, o...Great post! I am not FLDS, I am a Reform Mormon, on the other side of the spectrum, but Mormon Fundamentalism is an expression of our common Mormon faith, and I respect the FLDS denomination much more than the LDS one. As for your post, this situation in Texas is so sad and it makes me sick to see religiou freedom infringed in what is a witch-hunt for polygamist under the pretext of a hoax of a rape claim. Yes, maybe some FLDS are guilty of that sort of crime, but like in any other religions...Mormon(s) of another kindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03949655424951155770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-39015966464113530382008-05-04T12:37:00.000-04:002008-05-04T12:37:00.000-04:00Want the rest of the lyrics? Here you go: A cloud ...Want the rest of the lyrics? Here you go:<BR/> <BR/>A cloud for a covering, ...a flaming pillar by night<BR/><BR/>O Zion, put on thy beautiful garments <BR/>which are the Powers and gifts of His Spirit in you<BR/>Oh, hearken all Israel!<BR/>Live for the promise of God.<BR/>Our Savior shall dwell in our midst<BR/>For the household of faith he will stretch forth his arm<BR/>And bring forth the redemption of Zion.<BR/> <BR/><BR/>There will be a people upon whose hearts<BR/>The Lord hath written His law<BR/>And all who remain be holy and pure<BR/>Then fear not, but trust in the Lord<BR/>For since the beginning have men not percieved<BR/>Or heard, or any eye seen<BR/>O Lord besides Thee, what Thou hast prepared<BR/>For him that hath watched and waited for Thee! (Hath waited for Thee!)<BR/> <BR/>O Zion, put on thy beautiful garments <BR/>which are the Powers and gifts of His Spirit in you<BR/>Draw from the heavens His almighty power <BR/>To build and redeem again Zion<BR/><BR/>O hope of Isreal, come live the word of God!<BR/>For He will dwell in our midst!<BR/>Through the pure love of Christ, and His smile in our hearts<BR/>He will bring forth the redemption of Zion!<BR/><BR/><A>fldsview.blogspot.com</A>Pliggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093939505833710898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-31628485564535053352008-04-20T12:51:00.000-04:002008-04-20T12:51:00.000-04:00Thank you, Christopher, for your excellent respons...Thank you, Christopher, for your excellent responses. I couldn't agree more. Alice, I don't know if you are Mormon, but the song really resonates for me as a Latter-day Saint. The FLDS share a lot in common with us, and one of these things is their yearning for Zion. <BR/><BR/>As for the interviews with the women, to me they seemed innocent, untouched by the world, and, well...sweet. They have acheived the goal they have been striving for. The FLDS women I have known have been far from brainwashed, but on the contrary, exhibited strong and passionate beliefs. Just look at the pages written by the poor "brainwashed" polygamous early Mormon women in the Exponent Magazine. They articulately expressed their reasoning and their support of polygamy. We need not agree with their views, but these beliefs are not unusual if we look at world cultures over time.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-63758401351845217732008-04-19T20:23:00.000-04:002008-04-19T20:23:00.000-04:00christopher- I will admit that I have cultural bi...christopher- I will admit that I have cultural biases. They are inevitable and it's worth some effort to identify them so we can neutralize their effect and see what's true and enduring. I have tried to do that. How successful I've been it's hard to say because emotions kick in when the abuse of children and strongly held religious views enter the picture. <BR/><BR/>I had no intent to mock the emotional disconnect I see in the women of YfZ. I <I>observed</I> it and I think it's a relevant piece of this onslaught of information. I also think it's a trait that developed over a significant period of time rather than in the last 3 weeks. Abuse and/or a pattern of intimidation make sense to me as factors that would produce such disconnected and remote behavior. If they don't to you I'd be interested in what you think produces it because it's not a personality trait we see in conventional populations. <BR/><BR/>I will admit I am <I>not</I> all that familiar with Carolyn Jessop's previous statements. I didn't folllow Warren Jeff's trial all that carefully. She may have given statements that dispute the one I have heard recently. But I can't say that I agree with your characterization of her as an angry woman. <BR/><BR/><I>If</I> she has experienced what she says she has, I can understand how she could be angry indeed. But my observation of her is that she is lucid and measured in her statements. I have to take her evaluation of life in a closed polygamous colony at face value because there aren't many eyewitnesses and what she says fits the generally accepted assessment. I genuinely believe she has the interests of those children and truth in mind. On this I could also be wrong but that's how it seems to me. Right or wrong, I'm not terribly ambiguous but I admit my fallibility. <BR/><BR/>DNA results that will eventually be in evidence will make it more clear how close to right you, she or I am. I guess we have no choice but to wait and remain open to what the facts may be.<BR/><BR/><BR/>anonymous aliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-61194854989542696482008-04-19T15:24:00.000-04:002008-04-19T15:24:00.000-04:00NJCher,Regarding your p.s.:what a crock that Warre...NJCher,<BR/><BR/>Regarding your p.s.:<BR/><BR/><EM>what a crock that Warren Jeffs' poem is What fluff. I dare anyone to try to say what it means.</EM><BR/><BR/>Okay, here it goes.<BR/><BR/><EM>Heavenly beings have come to direct the work of the fulness of times:</EM><BR/><BR/>An allusion to the heavenly messengers, including God, Christ, Adam, John the Baptist, Moses, Elijah, and others that Mormons believe visited Joseph Smith and restored Christ's church to the earth.<BR/><BR/><EM>To bring to pass Zion, the Lord’s pure in heart, a people perfected in Christ.</EM><BR/><BR/>The age-old quest for a utopian society, collectively known in Judeo-Christian history as "Zion." Mormon scripture affirms the future reality of such a perfected community of believers.<BR/><BR/><EM>Who will be Zion, filled with his love, laboring now with the hope</EM><BR/><BR/>Mutual love and charity (the pure love of Christ) will permeate the Zionic community.<BR/><BR/><EM>Of a glorious day, when Zion shall rise, and the words of the prophets unfold.</EM><BR/><BR/>This community will be the fulfillment of biblical prophecies.<BR/><BR/><EM>When Zion shall flourish upon the hills, the wilderness blossoming fair as the rose,</EM><BR/><BR/>An allussion to prophecies recorded in the book of Isaiah.<BR/><BR/><EM>When Zion comes singing with songs of great joy<BR/>With praise and thanksgiving assembles to worship our Lord</EM><BR/><BR/>Christ the Lord Omnipotent will dwell among his true followers in Zion, and be worshipped through song, praise, and thanksgiving.<BR/><BR/><EM>Oh, Zion! <BR/>Put on thy beautiful garments, <BR/>Which are the powers and gifts of his Spirit in you,<BR/>Draw from the heavens the almighty power to build and redeem again Zion!</EM><BR/><BR/>Biblical prophecies of Zion rising up and putting on her garments is interpreted here to mean that the gifts of the spirit spoken of by Paul and other New Testament figures, as well as rehearsed anew in Mormon scriptures, will be enjoyed in Zion.<BR/><BR/><EM>Oh, hearken all Israel!<BR/>Live for the promise of God.<BR/>Our Savior shall dwell in our midst<BR/>For the household of faith he will stretch forth his arm<BR/>And bring forth the redemption of Zion.</EM><BR/><BR/>Israel here is a reference to the true followers of Christ. Christ shall dwell among those true followers in a coming day in the millennial Zion.<BR/><BR/><EM>Imagine the people of Enoch of old, trained in the order of heaven<BR/>A beautiful city the Lord called his own and forever made his abode<BR/>Coming to join with the Zion on earth when finally the earth finds its rest</EM><BR/><BR/>An allusion to the biblical prophet Enoch who "walked with God." Mormon scripture expands on identifying who Enoch was, and teaches that he established a perfect city--a Zion, if you will--and because he and his followers were so righteous, they were taken into heaven. During the millennium, this city of Enoch will return to earth and become one with the new Zion.<BR/><BR/><EM>A kingdom established in celestial laws, a people the Lord can accept<BR/>A New Jerusalem it will be, a land of refuge, a city of peace<BR/>Upon every dwelling the Lord shall create<BR/>A cloud for a covering, a flaming</EM><BR/><BR/>The inhabitants of Zion will live God's celestial law. Their city will be God's chosen city as Jerusalem was in ancient times. God shall protect these sincere disciples in a symbolic way like he protected the children of Israel of old.<BR/><BR/>Rather than fluff, I quite like the song, and find it full of rich biblical symbolism. I, do not, however like the author of the hymn.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of your post ... well, it seems to mostly be a garbled bunch of nonsensical rants littered with an attitude of cultural elitism that is both narrow-minded and inconsiderate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-70667195570973793492008-04-19T15:05:00.000-04:002008-04-19T15:05:00.000-04:00BiV, I don't know how I missed this post when you ...BiV, I don't know how I missed this post when you put it up last week. Thank you for it.<BR/><BR/>anonymous alice, to answer your questions:<BR/><BR/><EM>Do you realize that Warren Jeffs whose photo you have in this entry is in jail for forcing a 14 year old girl to marry her 19 year old first cousin against her will?</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes, I think most commenters here do realize that. No one is defending Jeffs' actions here.<BR/><BR/><EM>Or that he, Jeffs, had 6 year olds removed from their families in AZ and placed without their parents on the Yearning for Zion Ranch?</EM><BR/><BR/>Again, yes, we're aware of that. <BR/><BR/><EM>Have you heard any of those zombie-like women with the voices of scared 6 year olds? Have you noticed that when they discuss how sad they are that their emotions just don't seem to be registering what they're talking about even though they may be dabbing at tears? Do you have any doubt at all when you listen to them that they have been subjected to a great deal of abuse themselves?</EM><BR/><BR/>I've listened to every interview and watched every video of the women from the YFZ ranch. I don't agree with your assessment of their voices as "zombie-like." Until any of us experience the hell of going through what they've experiences in the last 3 weeks, I for one do not feel comfortable mocking their emotional response. And yes, there is a lot of doubt in my mind that these women were abused in their marriages. But you're right, they have been abused. By the Texas State authorities.<BR/><BR/><EM>Have you read the account of Carolyn Jessop that her husband was accustomed to "breaking" infants, i.e. making them docile and compliant, by slapping them until they cried and then holding their faces in a stream of water until they couldn't cry and breathe at the same time?</EM><BR/><BR/>I've read and listened to everything Carolyn Jessop has to say. Most of what she says contradicts other statements she has previously made. She comes across as an angry individual with an axe to grind that will do whatever is takes to grind that axe. She holds little to no credibility in my book.<BR/><BR/>Please check your cultural biases and "enlightened" imperialist attitude at the door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-54170921061288904502008-04-18T16:25:00.000-04:002008-04-18T16:25:00.000-04:00The only complaint I have about the authorities in...The only complaint I have about the authorities in this situation is that they did not act soon enough. They knew about this cult for years, yet it has taken this long for them to do anything. And let's not forget there are dozens more situations like this throughout the southwest that are not being dealt with.<BR/><BR/>Like most institutions, this "church" devolved to suit the needs of those in power. Oh, how conveeeeenient, as the Church Lady says, that 50-something year old guys can have as many child brides as they want. <BR/><BR/>Wouldn't it be something if we had some big, bizarre-looking, shut-off structure (called a "temple") out in the southwest where women in their 50s diddled 12- and 13-year-old boys? "Spiritually married" 'em, of course. I'll just bet the posters on this thread would have loads of sympathy for them. Their "hearts would go out to them." <BR/><BR/>And so what if some other cultures practice "plural marriages?" That doesn't make it desirable OR right. Anytime one person in a relationship is subjugated, it is wrong. And isn't it just an oddity that most of the time that person is a woman?<BR/><BR/>NJCher<BR/><BR/>and p.s. what a crock that Warren Jeffs' poem is What fluff. I dare anyone to try to say what it means.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-66177241186563962692008-04-18T02:51:00.000-04:002008-04-18T02:51:00.000-04:00Do you realize that Warren Jeffs whose photo you h...Do you realize that Warren Jeffs whose photo you have in this entry is in jail for forcing a 14 year old girl to marry her 19 year old first cousin against her will? <BR/><BR/>Or that he, Jeffs, had 6 year olds removed from their families in AZ and placed without their parents on the Yearning for Zion Ranch? <BR/><BR/>Have you heard any of those zombie-like women with the voices of scared 6 year olds? Have you noticed that when they discuss how sad they are that their emotions just don't seem to be registering what they're talking about even though they may be dabbing at tears? Do you have any doubt at all when you listen to them that they have been subjected to a great deal of abuse themselves? <BR/><BR/>Have you read the account of Carolyn Jessop that her husband was accustomed to "breaking" infants, <I>i.e.</I> making them docile and compliant, by slapping them until they cried and then holding their faces in a stream of water until they couldn't cry and breathe at the same time? <BR/><BR/>Just making sure that you're aware of what's going on when you suggest sympathy for the group that makes these things possible.<BR/><BR/>anonymous aliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-25279300977730684322008-04-17T10:49:00.000-04:002008-04-17T10:49:00.000-04:00BiV, do you currently live in Saudi Arabia? If so...BiV, do you currently live in Saudi Arabia? If so, could you add some links to news coverage of the Texas/FLDS FIASCO? I would be really interested to read those as I think that you bring up a great point about our cultural biases...Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17294997598773935289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-56263351653149461032008-04-16T19:21:00.000-04:002008-04-16T19:21:00.000-04:00Chanson, thanks for clarifying about the birth con...Chanson, thanks for clarifying about the birth control issue. I wasn't able to articulate my objection and you said it nicely.<BR/><BR/>BiV, thanks so much for this post. My heart has been going out to these people since I heard about this. As so many others have said, I disagree with their practices and beliefs, but the way the state has handled this has been atrocious. And thanks for reminding us that even though it's probable that some abuse has happened here and there, it is probably not a sect-wide issue. There are loving fathers and husbands who have had their children and wives separated from them and are probably hurting so much. And yes, my heart goes out to these children. I ache for them. It pains me so much to see my own sons hurting, I can't imagine what these women must be feeling.Lessiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10741982738892350097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-14913698257998711652008-04-15T11:51:00.000-04:002008-04-15T11:51:00.000-04:00Alice - and you know that all of the FLDS families...Alice - and you know that all of the FLDS families are guilty of that how? Isn't it possible that not all of the plural wives were taken as young teenagers? Isn't it possible that the ex-FLDS member BiV quoted has some points in her argument? How can you condemn an entire society based on the actions of, as far as we know, only a few?Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17254208744417742746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-38429750968079490622008-04-15T11:39:00.000-04:002008-04-15T11:39:00.000-04:00If loving families are giving 15 yo girls to middl...If loving families are giving 15 yo girls to middle aged men then I ask you what kind of God wants that kind of devotion?<BR/><BR/>I'm much more comfortable with a God who wants men to keep the covenants they've made with their wives of 30 or 40 or 50 than go looking for replacements. <BR/><BR/>anonymous aliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-53723388888639131072008-04-14T23:45:00.000-04:002008-04-14T23:45:00.000-04:00Thank you so much for this post! I'm amazed at ho...Thank you so much for this post! I'm amazed at how quick we are to judge others on little evidence or to condemn a society for the known crimes of a few. I do feel that we as active LDS should have greater sympathy for the FLDS faith if they are being unjustly persecuted. While it is possible that heinous crimes have been committed, (really, is there a church/faith or group of people who doesn't have criminals and deviants among them?) I'm sure there are many among this faith who have loving families and are striving to serve God as they best understand Him. Who are we to judge them or to tear their families apart?Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17254208744417742746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-76321351599770833032008-04-14T21:41:00.000-04:002008-04-14T21:41:00.000-04:00BiV, I appreciate your thoughts on the news covera...BiV, I appreciate your thoughts on the news coverage. I think the media is going to far. It bothers me that they show video after video of women and children. The way they portray it emphasizes that this group of people is an 'other.' I don't know the inside details of the story; but my heart aches for parents and children who love each other and are separated right now.proudmamabloggahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15738284374326358635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-62150917228033289412008-04-14T13:52:00.000-04:002008-04-14T13:52:00.000-04:00Alice, I appreciate your feelings, but consider th...Alice, I appreciate your feelings, but consider the possibility that they are culturally based. The news reports on this story here in Saudi Arabia are very different than those in the States. Plural marriage to young girls has been acceptable in other parts of the world for centuries. Who are we to say our cultural bias is better or more enlightened? If you are LDS, our own tradition has this same practice less than 200 years ago.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-5684233279021746452008-04-14T12:07:00.000-04:002008-04-14T12:07:00.000-04:00Don't know how impregnating 15yos is anything but ...Don't know how impregnating 15yos is anything but exploitation and creating a lifetime of servitude. And when a whole culture does it and does it in defiance of laws I can't imagine what the justification for romanticizing it or putting a gloss of devotion over it could possibly be. <BR/><BR/>If that temple (it disgusts me to use that word in this way) had any part in a culture of breeding women like dogs in a puppy mill — and there's significant reason to think it was the means of intimidation by which that was accomplished — the men's emotional outpouring is just sick and disgusting or a pathetic attempt to displace their responsibility for their actions.<BR/><BR/>I want you to know I tried to find more measured ways to say this but this is a matter of gut-churning revulsion and I can't pretend otherwise. <BR/><BR/>anonymous aliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-15649502383929835372008-04-14T08:02:00.000-04:002008-04-14T08:02:00.000-04:00Giving teens access to contraceptives is not "indo...Giving teens access to contraceptives is not "indoctrination." That is medical care. Parents have the right to teach their kids whatever they want about the meaning or significance of sexual contact, but freedom of religion is not a license to keep your children away from the doctor and deny them (potentially lifesaving) medical care.<BR/><BR/>That said, regarding actual indoctrination, the FLDS have the right to teach their kids that polygamy is righteousness and is the will of God even if the rest of society finds this belief distasteful.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the point by anonymous (that not much concrete evidence is needed before removing a child from a potentially dangerous home for a hearing at least), sure I can see the logic in that. But this case appears to be going a step beyond "We have reason to suspect this family, so we'll check it out to be safe." This is more like "Some FLDS have abused their kids, so we will take all of the kids from the entire community." I don't think there's any precedent for this, nor should there be.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-54624654762659460882008-04-13T22:16:00.000-04:002008-04-13T22:16:00.000-04:00hey - i just wanted you to know i appreciated your...hey - i just wanted you to know i appreciated your post. it's made me look at the coverage very differently. while i could never live the way they do, i cannot begrudge them from living that way. what is right for some people isn't right for others, and it is our duty to honor and respect everyone - no matter what.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-34772358876096483672008-04-12T21:38:00.000-04:002008-04-12T21:38:00.000-04:00You should know that in most states there is no ne...You should know that in most states there is no need for immediate corroboration to remove children from a home. The children are usually detained immediately with a hearing held before a judge within a short period of time to determine if the child should continue to be detained or if the child can be returned to his parents immediately subject to certain conditions or none (if the allegations can be shown to be unfounded at the first hearing).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-44241303834105349262008-04-11T19:15:00.000-04:002008-04-11T19:15:00.000-04:00Thank you for your excellent post. I appreciated ...Thank you for your excellent post. I appreciated your explaining that "we have beds in our temples also."<BR/><BR/>And I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion that "authorities should open up channels of communication whereby girls and women who would like to voluntarily leave this group can receive some support in doing so." I had been thinking today that perhaps all of this happened so that those who want to leave the sect now have the opportunity to do so.Kalolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04489121984901640634noreply@blogger.com