<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?><?xml-stylesheet href="http://www.blogger.com/styles/atom.css" type="text/css"?><feed xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom' xmlns:openSearch='http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearchrss/1.0/' xmlns:georss='http://www.georss.org/georss' xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249</id><updated>2012-01-28T14:09:50.881-05:00</updated><category term='Church administration'/><category term='hymns'/><category term='Symbolism'/><category term='Dialogue Journal'/><category term='Truth'/><category term='Mortality'/><category term='prophet'/><category term='Sunstone'/><category term='Freedom'/><category term='United Order'/><category term='books'/><category term='Islamic culture'/><category term='Ramadan'/><category term='Pacifism'/><category term='Polygamy'/><category term='Israel'/><category term='BYU'/><category term='Jackson County'/><category term='Book Reviews'/><category term='Zion'/><category term='missionary work'/><category term='Ex-Mormon'/><category term='Church history'/><category term='Bible'/><category term='war/peace'/><category term='Covenants'/><category term='About Me'/><category term='Sunday School'/><category term='Faith'/><category term='birth control'/><category term='Dialogue'/><category term='Priesthood'/><category term='Resurrection'/><category term='movie ratings'/><category term='U.S. Constitution'/><category term='Just for fun'/><category term='reviews'/><category term='DNA'/><category term='God'/><category term='scripture'/><category term='Feminism'/><category term='language'/><category term='Jesus Christ'/><category term='Astronomy'/><category term='Tarot'/><category term='Genealogy'/><category term='Astrology'/><category term='YFZ'/><category term='Love'/><category term='Book of Mormon'/><category term='Pictures'/><category term='Doctrine and Covenants'/><category term='spirit world'/><category term='Saudia'/><category term='Vocabulary'/><category term='Easter'/><category term='Lucy Mack Smith'/><category term='DH'/><category term='musings'/><category term='Education'/><category term='Body Issues'/><category term='Excommunication'/><category term='Depression'/><category term='Temple'/><category term='Marriage'/><category term='Eve'/><category term='Calling and Election'/><category term='Memes'/><category term='Old Testament'/><category term='Prophecy'/><category term='Mormon History'/><category term='Savior'/><category term='Blog of the Month'/><category term='Emma Smith'/><category term='my family'/><category term='Joseph Smith'/><category term='censorship'/><category term='Mormon Culture'/><category term='7th East Press'/><category term='Politics'/><category term='Morality'/><category term='mothers'/><category term='Divine Feminine'/><category term='NaBoMoReMo'/><category term='Scriptures'/><category term='Poetry'/><category term='Eliza R. Snow'/><category term='sexuality'/><category term='GLBT LDS'/><category term='Adam'/><category term='JS Manual'/><category term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category term='Health'/><category term='CH'/><category term='prayer'/><category term='UEP'/><category term='Abuse'/><category term='singles'/><category term='women'/><category term='Anthon Transcript'/><category term='survival tips'/><category term='FLDS'/><category term='religious history'/><category term='translation'/><category term='Music'/><category term='Relief Society'/><category term='callings'/><category term='Pioneers'/><category term='Salvation'/><category term='Art'/><category term='Science'/><category term='Proclamation on the Family'/><category term='Mysticism'/><category term='mission'/><category term='Leaves from my Missionary Journal'/><category term='Blogging'/><category term='Bloggernacle'/><category term='Women&apos;s Issues'/><category term='Economy'/><category term='Conferences'/><category term='Christian Living'/><category term='Brigham Young'/><category term='Sustainability'/><category term='Consecration'/><category term='Holy Ghost'/><category term='Ambiguity'/><category term='Question'/><category term='Spirituality'/><category term='Whales'/><category term='Doctrinal'/><category term='writing'/><category term='Blake Ostler'/><category term='Church policy'/><category term='Women&apos;s health'/><category term='School of the Prophets'/><category term='fathers'/><category term='Moroni'/><title type='text'>Hieing to Kolob</title><subtitle type='html'>God is high in his heaven. But since I can't get there, I shall hie to Kolob. Reaching just as high as I can...</subtitle><link rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default?max-results=100'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/'/><link rel='hub' href='http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/'/><link rel='next' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default?start-index=101&amp;max-results=100'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><generator version='7.00' uri='http://www.blogger.com'>Blogger</generator><openSearch:totalResults>414</openSearch:totalResults><openSearch:startIndex>1</openSearch:startIndex><openSearch:itemsPerPage>100</openSearch:itemsPerPage><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-8807569821823621667</id><published>2011-06-18T13:03:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2011-06-18T13:07:10.754-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><title type='text'>4-Month Bell's Palsy Update</title><content type='html'>It's been about 4 months of Bell's Palsy and I want to put another update up here. The biggest thing I notice about my face that still hasn't cleared up is that I can't squeeze my right eye shut tight like I can my left. This bothers me a little bit, mostly when swimming without goggles on. When I laugh, I can't feel it, but the left side is a bit more squinty than the right. You can see it in this picture: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hv0yiheBRpE/TfzX6U0w6KI/AAAAAAAAAok/MnW-9RtAOfo/s1600/DSCN3550-1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left:1em; margin-right:1em"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="240" width="320" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hv0yiheBRpE/TfzX6U0w6KI/AAAAAAAAAok/MnW-9RtAOfo/s320/DSCN3550-1.jpg" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The past few weeks I have been feeling some twitchiness in the BP side, and a little tightness in the muscles. I am hoping this means more healing is taking place... I noticed when I close my mouth tight there is a lumpiness in my chin, I'm using muscles there that I never used before. I'm trying to remember to relax my chin when I close my mouth. My mouth is sometimes symmetrical and sometimes crooked. Both corners of the mouth work, but not always in unison. I think when I'm tired, the BP side doesn't cooperate as well. Here's what it looks like when crooked. (The BP side of the mouth is actually bigger here.)If I look in the mirror or concentrate on it, I have no problem making both sides look the same.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FDSkmGT4ubw/TfzZxHFyohI/AAAAAAAAAos/5PuG8wUZudg/s1600/077%2B%25282%2529.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left:1em; margin-right:1em"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" width="240" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FDSkmGT4ubw/TfzZxHFyohI/AAAAAAAAAos/5PuG8wUZudg/s320/077%2B%25282%2529.jpg" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I haven't been doing facial exercises, and I think I should do them again for a few weeks and see if I can get to 100% recovery. All in all I am very happy with how things are going!&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-8807569821823621667?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/8807569821823621667/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=8807569821823621667' title='4 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/8807569821823621667'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/8807569821823621667'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/06/4-month-bells-palsy-update.html' title='4-Month Bell&apos;s Palsy Update'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hv0yiheBRpE/TfzX6U0w6KI/AAAAAAAAAok/MnW-9RtAOfo/s72-c/DSCN3550-1.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>4</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-2836716347566891624</id><published>2011-04-24T20:31:00.004-04:00</published><updated>2011-04-24T21:31:48.886-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Resurrection'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Easter'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Jesus Christ'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>An Easter Ode</title><content type='html'>If you've read this blog for many years you know that &lt;a href="http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2008/03/hallelujah-christ-arose_6298.html"&gt;I love to attend Easter services&lt;/a&gt;. Today I went to the Old Fort Baptist Church nearby for their morning service. I enjoyed watching their reenactment of Christ's resurrection (a short clip of the passion play they've been presenting this week), singing their modern worship songs, and listening to their fiery pastor. During the sermon, he said that there is a time and a place for reverence, but that this day is not one of them. I can't imagine a Mormon ever saying that about Easter Sunday. In fact, it inspired me to write a poem, which I titled: &lt;a href="http://www.wheatandtares.org/2011/04/24/to-the-virgins-and-high-priests-of-the-second-ward-an-easter-message/"&gt;To the Virgins and High Priests of the Second Ward: An Easter Message&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I am pleased to note that Church with the Mormons this afternoon did not suck. There was some nice music by the choir, a Primary class did bells to "He Died that we might Live Again," (yeah, that was my class), and the closing talk on Resurrection was wonderful. The first talk was on the Atonement, and I'm glad we didn't spend the whole time on that subject. Though I think it's necessary to talk about the death of Christ at Easter, I like the emphasis to be on the risen Christ and the joy in such an event! (and, come on, we have all heard &lt;a href="http://www.ywconnection.com/Activities/pageAhetookmywhippingforme.html"&gt;the story&lt;/a&gt; of the boy who took the whipping for the kid who stole his lunch...)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I can never get enough of the music, the pageantry, and the poetry that is Easter. Kristine has given some wonderful &lt;a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/04/23/music-for-easter-morning-2/"&gt;musical links&lt;/a&gt; for the day, Lynette compiled some &lt;a href="http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2011/04/23/thoughts-for-easter-weekend/"&gt;Easter theology&lt;/a&gt;, and I will leave you with one more poem before you end your Resurrection Day.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td style="text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26NCTSiGFqM/TbTAcLr7NkI/AAAAAAAAAoM/PY_ExkGm9Yo/s1600/violets+by+Veronica+Lawlor.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="281" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26NCTSiGFqM/TbTAcLr7NkI/AAAAAAAAAoM/PY_ExkGm9Yo/s320/violets+by+Veronica+Lawlor.jpg" width="310" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"&gt;Drawing: "Violets" by &lt;a href="http://onedrawingaday.com/category/veronica/page/3/"&gt;Veronica Lawlor&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;An Easter Ode&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;by Paul Laurence Dunbar&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To the cold, dark grave they go &lt;br /&gt;Silently and sad and slow, &lt;br /&gt;From the light of happy skies &lt;br /&gt;And the glance of mortal eyes. &lt;br /&gt;In their beds the violets spring, &lt;br /&gt;And the brook flows murmuring; &lt;br /&gt;But at eve the violets die, &lt;br /&gt;And the brook in the sand runs dry. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the rosy, blushing morn, &lt;br /&gt;See, the smiling babe is born; &lt;br /&gt;For a day it lives, and then &lt;br /&gt;Breathes its short life out again. &lt;br /&gt;And anon gaunt-visaged Death, &lt;br /&gt;With his keen and icy breath, &lt;br /&gt;Bloweth out the vital fire &lt;br /&gt;In the hoary-headed sire. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Heeding not the children's wail, &lt;br /&gt;Fathers droop and mothers fail; &lt;br /&gt;Sinking sadly from each other, &lt;br /&gt;Sister parts from loving brother. &lt;br /&gt;All the land is filled with wailing, &lt;br /&gt;Sounds of mourning garments trailing, &lt;br /&gt;With their sad portent imbued, &lt;br /&gt;Making melody subdued. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But in all this depth of woe &lt;br /&gt;This consoling truth we know: &lt;br /&gt;There will come a time of rain, &lt;br /&gt;And the brook will flow again; &lt;br /&gt;Where the violet fell, 'twill grow, &lt;br /&gt;When the sun has chased the snow. &lt;br /&gt;See in this the lesson plain, &lt;br /&gt;Mortal man shall rise again. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well the prophecy was kept; &lt;br /&gt;Christ "first fruit of them that slept" &lt;br /&gt;Rose with vic'try-circled brow; &lt;br /&gt;So, believing one, shalt thou. &lt;br /&gt;Ah! but there shall come a day &lt;br /&gt;When, unhampered by this clay, &lt;br /&gt;Souls shall rise to life newborn &lt;br /&gt;On that resurrection morn. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-2836716347566891624?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/2836716347566891624/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=2836716347566891624' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2836716347566891624'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2836716347566891624'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/04/easter-ode.html' title='An Easter Ode'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26NCTSiGFqM/TbTAcLr7NkI/AAAAAAAAAoM/PY_ExkGm9Yo/s72-c/violets+by+Veronica+Lawlor.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-4828882659911919106</id><published>2011-03-16T22:07:00.000-04:00</published><updated>2011-03-16T22:07:38.796-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Eye Roll</title><content type='html'>This is going to be TMI for some of you...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Today I read about something called "Bell's phenomenon" which is an upward rolling of the eye when the eyelid tries to close. This is actually a benefit right at first because it protects the eye when it can't close. But then it begins to be a habit, and every time you blink your eyelid the eye rolls up. When I read about this phenomenon I immediately got out my camera and took a video. Yes, my eye was rolling up. OH, NO!!! I became obsessed with it. All day long I've been trying to counter this by closing my eyelid while looking down. It's extremely difficult to do. And right now, my eyes are both exhausted.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is an awesome &lt;a href="http://allbellspalsy.info/facial-exercises-series-part-5-the-exercises/"&gt;Bell's palsy facial workout&lt;/a&gt; that I found online. See the part that says "Do not worry, this Bell's phenomenon will go. Don't strain for this or any of the other exercises"?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-4828882659911919106?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/4828882659911919106/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=4828882659911919106' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4828882659911919106'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4828882659911919106'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/eye-roll.html' title='Eye Roll'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-3031076565520948277</id><published>2011-03-15T11:17:00.000-04:00</published><updated>2011-03-15T11:17:40.070-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Faith'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='musings'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='God'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Progress Report and Introspection</title><content type='html'>This is my one-month report. I am amazed at how well my recovery from Bell's palsy has gone. My right eyebrow and forehead work almost the same as they always have. (Downside is, I've lost the Botox effect, and my forehead wrinkles are back.) My eye closes and doesn't dry out at night. The blink reflex is back, but I can't squeeze my eye shut tightly, and the undereye muscles are still weak. My smile looks &lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;almost normal. It's a little lopsided, but I'm probably the only one that could tell. When I laugh reeeeeal hard, it looks strange, because my left eye squints down real small and the right one doesn't. I can't purse my lips all the way on the right side. It's almost there, though, because I can whistle. I can't wrinkle my nose or flare my nostrils. I can't curl my right lip up in an Elvis sneer. I can't wink my right eye. (oh yeah, I never could wink my right eye, only my left!) Now that most of the muscles are working normally, I'm ready to start doing a few gentle &lt;a href="http://www.bellspalsy.ws/exercise.htm"&gt;facial exercises&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. But I have to wonder why I've been so fortunate to have such a quick recovery. My recovery is one of the faster ones. It wasn't miraculous enough to think that I was "healed" by the blessing I received or the prayers I offered up. Still, the inclination is to say I've been "blessed" or that I am seeing the "tender mercies" of the Lord on my behalf. But when juxtaposed with the horrible tragedy of the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan, how can I even consider that the Lord was involved? Who am I compared to any of those thousands of people who died or were injured or lost family members or property? Surely not more righteous. Surely not more needed in my family or on earth. Not any more worthy of notice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My tentative conclusion has to be that we live in these fragile mortal bodies and they are subject to all of the conditions of earthly life. Our bodies are susceptible to disease, they wear out, malfunction, and they also heal and recover. Many conditions affect how well or how poorly they do these things. In like manner, the earth is in constant flux, subject to changing weather and geographical conditions that most likely have nothing to do with Divine interference. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No matter how much I would like someone to persuade me that God has a personal hand in my life, my observations convince me otherwise. I tried really hard to let this Bell's Palsy condition work on me so that I could see some kind of otherworldly influence involved, whether in the causes or healing of it. I tried to let it soften my heart, to turn me to the Lord. I think I wanted this to be my watershed moment. My Saul-on-the-way-to-Damascus conversion. But I am left again in my faithless recreant state.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, not exactly FAITHLESS. I have hope that there is a Divine Being. I desire for there to be a God. There could still be a God, one who works within the strictures of a created world. I'm still trying to discover Him, to uncover Him, to know Him. But I'm just not able to force my perfidious mind to believe in miracles I cannot see.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-3031076565520948277?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/3031076565520948277/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=3031076565520948277' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/3031076565520948277'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/3031076565520948277'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/progress-report-and-introspection.html' title='Progress Report and Introspection'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-4809560781684211976</id><published>2011-03-07T01:34:00.000-05:00</published><updated>2011-03-07T01:34:00.701-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Busted!</title><content type='html'>I'm well enough that I can "fake" normalcy when I go out in public for short periods. So I thought I was going to get away without telling the whole ward that I was incapacitated. I did tell my Primary class, because it was very obvious the Sunday after I got Bell's Palsy. But then we had Stake Conference and I didn't go, and after that my face was beginning to look better. Friday my daughter and I went to visit a lady in our neighborhood who just had a baby and we dropped off a fruit basket. We were just about to leave, and DD made an ill-considered remark about me having Bell's Palsy. I was rather annoyed. Just after we visited, the compassionate service leader came by, to bring dinner in to the family with the new baby. That's when the Mormon grapevine went to work. So, today at Church I had to discuss my affliction with sundry people and put on a cheery attitude. GRRRRR. Also, the Bishop sent me a little message on my Facebook expressing condolences and asking if he could do anything to help. I know everyone means well. And they are very kind. There just isn't anything they can really do to "serve" me at this time. I'm probably being overly sensitive. But if they don't want anything to do with me on a regular basis, I don't really want them coming around me when I'm at my worst. Does that make any sense at all?&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-4809560781684211976?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/4809560781684211976/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=4809560781684211976' title='3 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4809560781684211976'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4809560781684211976'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/busted.html' title='Busted!'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>3</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-445035573285970500</id><published>2011-03-03T23:09:00.000-05:00</published><updated>2011-03-03T23:09:30.889-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Advantages of Bell's Palsy?</title><content type='html'>Day 16. I'm feeling much better about my face today. Now that there is a little more tone on the right side, it doesn't droop so much. Even though everything is still crooked, I can live with it. The only think I really, really need to improve is the muscles surrounding my eye. It is inconvenient and painful that I can't shut my eye tightly. On Tuesday I went to the beach for a couple of hours, just to walk up and down in the sand. It was very windy, and even though I had sunglasses on it was uncomfortable to have it blowing in my eye.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I rack my brain, I can even think of some of the advantages of having Bell's Palsy! (Pictures after the jump...)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;&amp;nbsp;Playing peek-a-boo is easier&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8BtHcJJ6EMc/TXBicjNh0OI/AAAAAAAAAn4/QUppvHBWCBE/s1600/bp14.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="213" src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8BtHcJJ6EMc/TXBicjNh0OI/AAAAAAAAAn4/QUppvHBWCBE/s320/bp14.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;Thin and thick lips at the same time! and without painful injections&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zGAnX9Cegn8/TXBidPKjt7I/AAAAAAAAAn8/aLDQNtOscFU/s1600/bp15.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zGAnX9Cegn8/TXBidPKjt7I/AAAAAAAAAn8/aLDQNtOscFU/s320/bp15.jpg" width="213" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;Half-price on botox&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uWRLG9UZaKs/TXBi1uaG46I/AAAAAAAAAoA/y1vxUY6SxTI/s1600/bp11.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="212" src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uWRLG9UZaKs/TXBi1uaG46I/AAAAAAAAAoA/y1vxUY6SxTI/s320/bp11.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;Keepin' an eye out for ya.. at all times!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NTG6UBqnXDI/TXBi2P3CsdI/AAAAAAAAAoE/2gn7gRmI5o0/s1600/bp12.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="212" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NTG6UBqnXDI/TXBi2P3CsdI/AAAAAAAAAoE/2gn7gRmI5o0/s320/bp12.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-445035573285970500?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/445035573285970500/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=445035573285970500' title='3 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/445035573285970500'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/445035573285970500'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/advantages-of-bells-palsy.html' title='Advantages of Bell&apos;s Palsy?'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8BtHcJJ6EMc/TXBicjNh0OI/AAAAAAAAAn4/QUppvHBWCBE/s72-c/bp14.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>3</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-3442970216652682863</id><published>2011-02-28T20:58:00.003-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-28T21:28:03.914-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Showing My Face</title><content type='html'>It's true that when I first came down with Bell's Palsy (14 days ago!), I felt like crawling in a hole. I wanted to climb into bed and not get up until I was back to normal, if, indeed, I ever DID recover fully. I did have that option, and I seriously considered it. Dr. B. told me I didn't have to work any more. My job has always been a little extra something on the side, not really necessary to the maintenance of our family. I could have gotten someone else to teach my Primary class, and I didn't even have to let my online friends know about it. There were several reasons I decided to "show my face."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j9w3LpYburk/TWxUUYC_WVI/AAAAAAAAAno/t3wgvY5-A9Y/s1600/IMG_8210.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j9w3LpYburk/TWxUUYC_WVI/AAAAAAAAAno/t3wgvY5-A9Y/s320/IMG_8210.JPG" width="213" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;First, I knew I was darn lucky to have the affliction I did. I wasn't in pain, it wasn't life-threatening, it didn't affect my quality of life, I still had a normal range of activity. I felt like it was very vain of me to be having such an over-the-top emotional reaction. I thought if I just came out with it and admitted how I looked and how I felt, it would purge me of my selfish feelings and thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Additionally, I really enjoy the several retreats and conferences I attend throughout the year. At these I meet (in real life!) the friends I have made online. I could either miss these fun events and hibernate at home, or I could buck up and go anyway. I figured if I put my pictures up, people would know what was going on and be prepared for how I look. Then I could go to my events and not have to shock anyone or endure long explanations. I have a retreat in April that is coming up, so I had to make a decision rather quickly about how I was going to handle it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lastly, one of my facebook friends recently had an operation for cancer on his face. The way he explained it, it sounded pretty bad -- and yes, I had a morbid curiosity to see what it looked like! I figured if I told people I had Bell's Palsy they would want to see. I would, if I were them!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Writing about my Bell's Palsy and posting pictures on this out-of-the-way blog isn't exactly exhibitionist. I don't think very many people even come here. Only a couple people in my ward even know about this, and I haven't even told my parents or my brothers and sister (unless they have happened by recently). But if anyone DOES happen to have an interest in how I am doing, here it is.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-3442970216652682863?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/3442970216652682863/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=3442970216652682863' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/3442970216652682863'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/3442970216652682863'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/showing-my-face.html' title='Showing My Face'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j9w3LpYburk/TWxUUYC_WVI/AAAAAAAAAno/t3wgvY5-A9Y/s72-c/IMG_8210.JPG' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-2026573529635005402</id><published>2011-02-27T16:33:00.001-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-27T22:48:10.853-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Bell's Palsy Photo Shoot</title><content type='html'>The other night my friend saw my Bell's Palsy photos here; and she said, "Honey, you could have at LEAST combed your hair!" So I pulled myself together, and had my daughter do a photo shoot in the back yard. I'm glad I had these done. Hopefully &amp;nbsp;it will soon all be a distant memory, and I'll only have these to remind me that I really couldn't move one whole side of my face.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have to say that these are the best online photos I've seen of a Bell's palsy patient -- including the ones of George Clooney!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gv3NK0lUL-4/TWrAwZrYCMI/AAAAAAAAAnI/k8LCbEFny90/s1600/IMG_8205+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="213" src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gv3NK0lUL-4/TWrAwZrYCMI/AAAAAAAAAnI/k8LCbEFny90/s320/IMG_8205+copy.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--ok0NBwUqO8/TWrA72vIYdI/AAAAAAAAAnM/BsjEIR7CMQc/s1600/IMG_8207+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--ok0NBwUqO8/TWrA72vIYdI/AAAAAAAAAnM/BsjEIR7CMQc/s320/IMG_8207+copy.jpg" width="213" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ViJML6065Hs/TWrBGUJzFuI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/UYd4_5gWX54/s1600/IMG_8208+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="214" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ViJML6065Hs/TWrBGUJzFuI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/UYd4_5gWX54/s320/IMG_8208+copy.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NfWN1P37lPw/TWrBTXE7KgI/AAAAAAAAAnU/8ILteM6blzM/s1600/IMG_8212+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="213" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NfWN1P37lPw/TWrBTXE7KgI/AAAAAAAAAnU/8ILteM6blzM/s320/IMG_8212+copy.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nAfEHKg6VrI/TWrBfvyMlVI/AAAAAAAAAnY/Ooug_RliY9E/s1600/IMG_8215+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="213" src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nAfEHKg6VrI/TWrBfvyMlVI/AAAAAAAAAnY/Ooug_RliY9E/s320/IMG_8215+copy.jpg" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JUdpiWRu_Rk/TWsa09KjKCI/AAAAAAAAAnk/F7dlJtsxqtQ/s1600/BP8-1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JUdpiWRu_Rk/TWsa09KjKCI/AAAAAAAAAnk/F7dlJtsxqtQ/s320/BP8-1.jpg" width="213" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E1eDxYoj0Fk/TWrB9bpyDjI/AAAAAAAAAng/qcXnCdTPfYs/s1600/IMG_8234+copy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E1eDxYoj0Fk/TWrB9bpyDjI/AAAAAAAAAng/qcXnCdTPfYs/s320/IMG_8234+copy.jpg" width="213" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-2026573529635005402?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/2026573529635005402/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=2026573529635005402' title='8 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2026573529635005402'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2026573529635005402'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/bells-palsy-photo-shoot.html' title='Bell&apos;s Palsy Photo Shoot'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gv3NK0lUL-4/TWrAwZrYCMI/AAAAAAAAAnI/k8LCbEFny90/s72-c/IMG_8205+copy.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>8</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-9163835226513737117</id><published>2011-02-26T21:15:00.001-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-26T21:16:22.668-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Sweet Painfulness</title><content type='html'>I'm starting to feel more pain in my face and especially right around my ear. It hasn't been too bad, because it feels sort of like when you work out a lot and the next day your muscles are sore. It feels like a good pain to have. But right at night when I'm trying to go to sleep it gets a little too intense, so it bothers me. I'm hoping that it means the nerve is trying to heal. I also had some more little tremors. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I read somewhere&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt; that if a Bell's Palsy patient sees some movement by the tenth day, there is almost 100% chance of complete recovery. So I was REALLY, REALLY hoping that on the tenth day something would move. No luck. I was beyond depressed. I have been sleeping about 8 hours a night and then napping for several hours in addition. I don't know whether this is because I need it for recovery, or if I have just been too depressed to stay awake. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But now, for the GOOD NEWS! Today, I was able to make the side of my mouth go up just a teeny, tiny bit!! So it's the twelfth day, but that seems close enough, doesn't it?? I'm trying not to look in the mirror too much. You are not supposed to move it around too much when it first starts coming back, because you can force the nerves into different pathways than they are supposed to use. But it's so tempting to try to make it move more, once you see that you can do it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had to teach some swim lessons this morning -- I know, I really am trying to get out of working as much as possible. But it seems there are a lot of things that I can't get substitutes for. Then I spent all afternoon helping DD with her science fair project. I'm really exhausted, and I decided not to go to the adult session of Stake Conference. I think it's probably the first time I have ever missed it. But I didn't want to have to get ready, and drive all the way down to Charleston, and I didn't want anyone to see me in this condition, either. I have pretty much decided to skip out on tomorrow, also. Another first.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-9163835226513737117?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/9163835226513737117/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=9163835226513737117' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/9163835226513737117'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/9163835226513737117'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/sweet-painfulness.html' title='Sweet Painfulness'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-1996328329707256087</id><published>2011-02-23T22:30:00.001-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-23T22:31:28.547-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Priesthood Blessing and Rationalism</title><content type='html'>I think my face looks a little bit better today, but maybe it's just because I've stopped wailing and crying over it so much. Amazing how the puffiness tends to go down when that happens! I can't notice any movement or improvement, though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I found that it is WAY easier to torture myself and punish my body than it is to merely rest. Today I spent quite a while in the pool perfecting my flip turn. I swam a nice slow mile yesterday and today, and figured out how to flip with a mouth full of water. Since my mouth won't form a seal, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;I have to hold the water in until I surface, and then blow it out before I breathe. I am trying not to strain myself, but it's so HARD to just WAIT and do NOTHING about this. At least I can get a little exercise, and try to resume some normal activities despite my affliction.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yesterday I had a priesthood blessing. It was very nice. But -- dare I admit I was disappointed? It seems like there are never any blessings of actual healing any more. They don't bless you, they bless your doctor, or they say some nice kind things about how your body will be strengthened. This has caused me to do some reflection about the gift of healing. I wonder why healing is even mentioned in the scriptures at all. I think it would be easier to bear if there were more scriptures about how it is God's will that we suffer due to mortality; that we should learn from our ailments and illnesses and that these trials will perfect us. Why even mention the possibility that if there are any sick among you, they can call for the elders and be anointed and be healed? This healing seems to happen so randomly and erratically, one scarcely knows if it was really by the power of God or just a chance happenstance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then there is the business of my faith. During the blessing, I opened my heart up to believe that I would instantly see an improvement, that discernable healing would take place. I hoped with all my soul. But now two days have passed and nothing. I've tried to increase my faith for 31 years to no avail. I just can't put myself into the magic world view. Is it my fault that I have grown up in an age of rationalism? Will I ever be able to transcend this way of thinking?&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-1996328329707256087?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/1996328329707256087/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=1996328329707256087' title='5 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1996328329707256087'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1996328329707256087'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/priesthood-blessing-and-rationalism.html' title='Priesthood Blessing and Rationalism'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>5</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7225798287210485839</id><published>2011-02-21T20:30:00.007-05:00</published><updated>2011-03-07T01:09:06.921-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Progression and Treatment of Bell's Palsy</title><content type='html'>&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"&gt;I want to document how I am treating this condition and how it progresses, so I'm just going to throw it up in this post. I will add to it periodically.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/11 Thursday. First noticed pain in the right ear, thought I was getting swimmers ear.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/14 Monday. Around 9pm Loss of muscle control on right side of face. No pain. Sensation present in the face.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/15 Tuesday. Checked by physician, blood work, Hospital outpatient CT scan. Tests came back clear, Diagnosis of Bell's Palsy given. Began taking prednisone 20 mg (2 tablets every morning for 5 days and 1 tablet every morning for the remaining 3 days) and Valacyclovir 1 gm (1 tablet twice a day for 10 days)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/16 Wednesday. Went back to work. Bought a B complex vitamin, eye drops, and eye ointment for night. Slept with taped eye.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/17 Thursday. Worked. Slept with headband around eye&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/18 Friday. Eye stays shut at night pretty well, so stopped wearing sleep aids. Eye does not blink involuntarily, but I can blink it voluntarily. Eye gets irritated and waters several times during the day.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/19 Saturday. Worked. Felt tiny tremors on my upper lip and at the corner of my mouth, Felt some pain/tenderness by my ear. Began taking omega-3 fish oil capsules.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/20 Sunday. Felt some more pain around my upper jaw. When I am very still and ready for sleep, I feel some twitching in the face. Non-affected eye is tired. Trying to limit computer use and get lots of sleep.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/21 Monday. One week has passed. Still no movement at all. Eye waters less. I ran a mile at the gym, really slow, then walked briskly for a mile. Tenderness in the face continues, plus very intermittent twitching. I welcome this, because it feels like it is a positive development. I lightly massage my face before I go to bed and a few times during the day.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/22 Tuesday. Not much twitching today. I'm trying to get lots of sleep, so the nerve will heal. I went to bed around 9PM, got up to do the Seminary run from 5:30am to around 7, then went back to bed till 11am. Worked for a few hours, and swam about a mile, real slow.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/23 Wednesday. Did the same sleep pattern as yesterday. The 7am to 11am sleep was like the dead. I felt like I was in a deeper sleep than I have ever experienced. After I woke up, I felt fluttering around my eye. I can't move the muscles much, but I can still close the lid if I think about it. Nothing seems improved yet. Exercise seems to help my mental state, so I swam a bit again today, 1000 yards, and practiced flip turns. Taught 2 private lessons, then took it easy the rest of the day.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/26 Thursday. I'm feeling pain in my face, especially around the ear. It gets fairly intense at night, right when I am trying to sleep. My right eye gets sore if I don't keep it closed a lot.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/25 Friday. Last day of medications. I will continue to take the B complex and the fish oil. Still using eyedrops several times a day and eye ointment at night.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/26 Saturday. Saw a tiny bit of movement at the corner of my mouth and right cheek.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;2/28 Monday. I can make a half-smile on the right side! No movement in the forehead, chin, or around the eye. Can't purse lips, and still have trouble with saying my "f"s, "b"s, and "p"s. Still having quite a bit of pain on the BP side and in and around my ear. The twitching seems to have quieted down for now. My eye gets tired and dry. I probably shouldn't be driving, or reading much. But I can't seem to help myself.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;3/7 Sunday. The pain is all gone!! And the twitching is gone, and I am seeing a LOT of movement in my face. I would say that about 50% of the movement is back. My speech is perfect. I can do a pretty good smile, if I don't open too wide. And my lower eyelid is moving perceptibly. I can eat and drink in public. Still can't whistle, blink involuntarily, raise my eyebrow or wink. My eye still feels dry and the other one is overtired.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-7225798287210485839?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/7225798287210485839/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=7225798287210485839' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7225798287210485839'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7225798287210485839'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/progression-and-treatment-of-bells.html' title='Progression and Treatment of Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7025472335559645198</id><published>2011-02-20T19:38:00.021-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-21T20:31:20.471-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Hiding Behind the Hymn Book</title><content type='html'>You really are invisible when you teach Primary. I was never so glad of the fact as I was this week. We got to Church just as the opening song was being sung, and sat in the overflow. No one noticed me, and I went right to my Primary class after Sacrament Meeting. I took the first few minutes to explain to the kids (11-year-olds) why my face might look a little strange, and told them that hopefully it was temporary and they could pray for me if they wanted. Then we launched right in to the lesson. Near the end of class we had brownies to celebrate the 12-year-old birthday of a boy who is THRILLED to be getting the priesthood. Then I went home a little early, leaving my class to their own devices in Sharing Time. I don't think I permanently scarred any of them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dr. B. suggested that I take a leave of absence from teaching Primary, but I don't really want to. I'd feel guilty just staying home from Church, but I don't want to go to SS &amp;amp; RS and be conspicuous. I did spend too much time and effort preparing a lesson last night and this morning, so if I'm going to keep teaching I need to just relax and not put so much frenzied effort into everything being perfect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I'm not sure why I don't really want to share this with anyone in my ward. I don't have any close friends here, it tires me to have to continually be explaining what happened, and I don't want people in the ward to feel sorry for me or feel obligated to make me treats. I also don't want to break down. It's so easy for me to get upset and cry and I want to avoid that if possible, especially in a public setting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I still get very sad and down about how I look and how I can't control my face. I have to watch out for triggers. Yesterday and today I tried to rest on my bed with my eyes closed and I had Dr. B. read aloud to me from a novel. At Chapter 5, one of the characters flashed back to her teen-aged days and described an episode of cutting. This was very bad for me. I am trying hard to stay right in the middle emotionally. If I get too depressed, I want to die, and if I get too zealous, I overdo things.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-7025472335559645198?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/7025472335559645198/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=7025472335559645198' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7025472335559645198'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7025472335559645198'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/hiding-behind-hymn-book.html' title='Hiding Behind the Hymn Book'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-820913818818017044</id><published>2011-02-19T23:00:00.000-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-21T20:16:21.382-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Fight or Float?</title><content type='html'>My supervisor has persuaded me to teach Saturday swim lessons, since there is no one else available to do the parent/infant classes. I'm going to take a 2 week break on the weekday classes. The session started today, though; so I found myself having to explain to a whole new crop of parents why I look so strange and my speech is a bit blurred. They take it well, I seem upbeat and in control, but it kills me inside.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After the lessons, I taught myself to swim with a paralyzed face. It is not so easy. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;The goggles solve the problem of the eye that will not close. Without them, it's almost impossible to stay underwater for long. The bigger problem is the breathing. I had to train myself to allow the water to enter my mouth and then puff up my cheek and blow it out as I turn to breathe. Doing this I can manage to swim quite a distance, but I haven't tried doing flip turns yet. For a few moments, I felt a sense of accomplishment before I again gave in to depression.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just like my face has two different sides, so does my psyche right now. On one hand, I want to approach this challenge head on, to fight it, to overcome. Online, I've seen the inspiring examples of &lt;a href="http://dandelionmama.wordpress.com/2010/01/29/goodbye-house/"&gt;Tracy&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http://janaremy.com/2010/12/02/seeking-security/"&gt;Jana&lt;/a&gt; and others who seem so positive and who are accomplishing so much despite scary things that have happened to them. On the other hand, I want to crawl under the covers and sob and cry and wail. I want to stop eating and living and moving.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The odd thing is that it might not be so good for me to be fighting, at least the way I approach things. I tend to push my body too much, to try to overcome physical limitations by strength of will. I'd do better if this were a problem I could improve by more exercise or mental effort. But from what I am reading, right now should be a waiting game. I need to rest, to recover, to take it easy. Too much exercise of the facial muscles could even cause the nerve to grow back wrong. So I just need to sit, slack-jawed, and accept my limitations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don't know if any of this can be attributed to God. Again, I'm of two minds. I want to make some spiritual sense out of this, to give it a meaning; but then I suspect that Bell's Palsy is just a part of the mortal condition. Perhaps it is something that happened randomly and is no part of a universal overarching plan for my life or the universe. Even though I fear the latter, I am choosing (even as I write this) to believe this has something to do with my spiritual education. I know I can learn submission through what I'm going through right now. So I might as well submit to God. If I can somehow use my feelings and my experiences to soften my heart, to make me willing, to cast myself upon the great ocean of His purpose and feel the currents of the Spirit, perhaps this horrifying nightmare will not have been in vain.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-820913818818017044?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/820913818818017044/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=820913818818017044' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/820913818818017044'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/820913818818017044'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/fight-or-float.html' title='Fight or Float?'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-4884375700363499223</id><published>2011-02-19T07:23:00.000-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-21T02:12:41.104-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Just Another Wal-Mart Lovely</title><content type='html'>Friday: My first grocery shopping expedition since BP. I put on my big, big sunglasses and my game face. I drove my son to school. Then, since I was out, and we had no food in the fridge, and we had a paycheck in the bank, I stopped by WalMart. No shopping list, but I'd just pick up a few things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First I got the essentials: toilet paper, shampoo, laundry soap. I looked for some sheer white curtain panels, but no luck. I smelled all the candles. I tried on 5 tops, sizes small, medium, large, x-large and xx large. I ended up being the same size I always am. I started in on the food. We needed staples, school lunches, a week's worth of dinners. I did fine on staples. I got through eggs, milk, bread, cereal. When it came to school lunches I started buying things I usually don't allow my kids to eat. Pudding cups, oatmeal pies, nutty bars, all prepackaged and junky and easy-looking. Then I randomly selected things to go into the cart. Feta cheese (with no idea what I was going to do with it). Blueberries. Chocolate frosting. Five loaves of day-old sliced Italian bread for 96c each. I was exhausted, I had to leave, NOW, and I still didn't have anything for dinners. I threw 5 packages of frozen burritos in the cart and checked out. The bill was $375.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I got to the car, I put my seatbelt on. I drove home with my hand over that eye, under the sunglasses.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-4884375700363499223?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/4884375700363499223/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=4884375700363499223' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4884375700363499223'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4884375700363499223'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/just-another-wal-mart-lovely.html' title='Just Another Wal-Mart Lovely'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-5489052439213155218</id><published>2011-02-18T20:42:00.004-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-20T16:02:17.926-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Solemn Vow in Jeopardy</title><content type='html'>When I finished having my 8 children, I had gained a bit of weight! One summer day I had a difficult time when getting ready to take the kiddos to the pool. I love water sports more than anything. I adore swimming, sailing, water skiing, kayaking, sailing, whitewater canoeing, anything in and around the water. But that day I didn't want to appear in public in a bathing suit. It took some courage to put it on, and I made a promise to myself at that moment. I made a solemn vow that I would never let my appearance stop me from doing something I loved.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That day was about 12 years ago. I promise you that I look 100 x worse right now than I did that day. Keeping my resolution has never seemed more impossible. I want so badly to lie down in my bed for several months and hide. I don't want to go swim, I don't want to teach the little ones, I don't want to go running in the beautiful South Carolina sunshine, there is nothing I can imagine I would enjoy doing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thursday was the last day of the swim session before new classes start up again next week. I have told my supervisor that I want to take at least a 2 week break to see where I am with this condition. But I had to go to the final lesson and pass out the certificates to the kids who have worked so hard. Once again, I dragged my butt over there. I did my best to help the kids have fun and end their session successfully.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just home from the pool again, I snapped my pic. I looked at it, realizing that it was no wonder that people were asking me what was the matter. The chlorine, the crying, the palsy, are all taking their toll. And in an effort to keep both sides of my face symmetrical, I've got myself looking positively ghoulish:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/GenevieveBruno/Avatar/001-Copy-1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/GenevieveBruno/Avatar/001-Copy-1.jpg" width="239" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, what is better? That, or smiling maniacally on one side, while the other won't behave?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/GenevieveBruno/Avatar/002-Copy-1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="320" src="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/GenevieveBruno/Avatar/002-Copy-1.jpg" width="239" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-5489052439213155218?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/5489052439213155218/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=5489052439213155218' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5489052439213155218'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5489052439213155218'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/solemn-vow-in-jeopardy.html' title='Solemn Vow in Jeopardy'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/GenevieveBruno/Avatar/th_001-Copy-1.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-1579311354857606496</id><published>2011-02-18T18:53:00.001-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-18T18:59:25.428-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>A Lovely Sight</title><content type='html'>I'm still deep in the throes of self-absorption. There's a lot that I want to thrash out, but I'll have to do it a little at a time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By the time I got my CT scan results and blood work and the doctor had given me the OK to go back to work, I had only missed one day (Tuesday). I was so emotionally exhausted I wasn't sure I was ready to go back, but I felt guilty because no one was really available to teach my swim lessons. Wednesday I was scheduled for lifeguarding from 12 to 3 at the therapy pool and then lessons from 3 to 6:30. My daughter said that you couldn't really tell by looking at me that anything was wrong. So I tried it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess you can't tell when my face is at repose, but customarily when the patrons come in, I smile at them and wish them a good day. My attempt not to move my mouth too much made everyone come over and ask how I was. This annoyed me because I did not want to have to explain what had happened. Then after I'd been guarding about an hour my eye got tired. My eye does not blink involuntarily now. I can close it, but it takes concentration, and having to do it many times a minute is more exhausting than you can imagine. I now had to close it with a fingertip, and more people were asking what was wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When lessons started, I had to explain to the parents at the beginning of each half-hour that I had Bell's palsy, that I was cleared for teaching, their children would be safe, and that I might just look a little strange and my speech was a bit blurred. I had to do this in an upbeat tone and make sure not to break down in tears. It was one of the hardest things I've done in recent memory. During the lessons I did fine, even forgetting myself, but I didn't feel comfortable demonstrating, because when I went underwater my eye didn't close, and the corner of my mouth stayed open, allowing water to get in. Then when I surfaced, I had to let it kind of dribble out. Unobtrusively. Very embarrassing. I love the fact that 3 and 4 year olds can roll with things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I got home, I was too tired to take a shower, my chlorinated hair just dried on my head. I needed a way to keep my eye shut, so I put a wad of tissue on it, secured with a headband around my head pirate-style. I looked at myself in the mirror and I noticed how old I was getting, and then I contemplated how much I would like to die before I get to be incapacitated or a burden to anyone else. And that I really wouldn't mind passing on right about now. I've done pretty much all I probably will do in this life and my kids can all take care of themselves. At this point I realized I needed to go to bed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Before I did, though, I took a picture of myself which I am posting here as kind of a therapy/self-flagellation. I &amp;nbsp;am very vain, you see, about pictures that I put up of myself on the internet. I try not to display my saggy chin or my undereye bags or my wrinkles. &amp;nbsp;But here they all are, plus my paralyzed right side. Maybe if I just put the worst on out there, I won't have too much trouble getting out in public and trying to accept what has happened and what I now look like:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cDzc-7Owb2I/TV8EmZj5VEI/AAAAAAAAAmo/PhKhipsk0a0/s1600/099.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="240" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cDzc-7Owb2I/TV8EmZj5VEI/AAAAAAAAAmo/PhKhipsk0a0/s320/099.JPG" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-1579311354857606496?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/1579311354857606496/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=1579311354857606496' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1579311354857606496'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1579311354857606496'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/lovely-sight.html' title='A Lovely Sight'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cDzc-7Owb2I/TV8EmZj5VEI/AAAAAAAAAmo/PhKhipsk0a0/s72-c/099.JPG' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7518119354083878798</id><published>2011-02-17T23:03:00.001-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-18T19:00:36.457-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>I Will Rage</title><content type='html'>The phrase on the site on&lt;a href="http://www.bellspalsy.ws/symptoms.htm"&gt; Bell's Palsy&lt;/a&gt; that grabbed me the most was this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: #1e3a7e; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"&gt;Friends, family and doctors often have no true concept of how deeply the patient's sense of self and self-esteem is affected.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: #1e3a7e; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;I know there are a lot of people who are suffering worse than I am. I'm not in pain, my life isn't threatened, I have every hope for recovery. But yes, my sense of self has been affected. And this is the place I'm going to say all those things I shouldn't be thinking, shouldn't be saying. I'm going to cry and rage and get it all out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can read it and say something, if you want -- or not.&lt;br /&gt;I don't really care.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-7518119354083878798?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/7518119354083878798/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=7518119354083878798' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7518119354083878798'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7518119354083878798'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/phrase-on-site-on-bells-palsy-that.html' title='I Will Rage'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-8331210299038828769</id><published>2011-02-16T11:28:00.004-05:00</published><updated>2011-02-18T19:00:42.344-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Bell&apos;s Palsy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='About Me'/><title type='text'>Thorn in the Flesh</title><content type='html'>Bell's Palsy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There, it's out. You might have an inkling of how difficult this is for me. I've had a phobia about aging that's grown steadily the past few years. I rage against it, I ignore it, I try to put it off. Fortuitously, my medical history has been sound. If I ever do get a cold, I treat it with Vitamin C and a brisk jog. I don't admit to backaches. I've only been to the hospital for wisdom teeth and childbirth -- and several of my children were born at home.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.wheatandtares.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/face.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="141" src="http://www.wheatandtares.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/face.jpg" width="140" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;So on Monday when I suddenly noticed that half my face was paralyzed, I freaked out. I didn't want to entertain the word "stroke." That was something that happened to old people, and I wouldn't let it happen to me. "Maybe I'm just tired," I thought, "and if I go to sleep, in the morning it will be better."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But it wasn't.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, what should I do? I took a shower, blow-dried my hair, put on makeup. I spent an hour with a hand-held mirror, making grimaces and trying to train the saggy side of my mouth to go up. All to no avail.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I cried all the makeup off. I took some vitamin C and several glasses of water.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I knew I should go to the doctor. This might be something that could be treated; or something that could get worse if it wasn't. But I couldn't make myself do it. It was as if such an action would be an admission that I was powerless against the onslaught of age.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The last thing I wanted to do was to admit to any of my family or friends what was happening. I wanted to go back to bed. The fear of death was great, but the fear of living impaired was greater. Somehow I found a tiny stalk of courage, enough to write a note to a little group of online friends. I described what was happening. "I didn't write this so you could all tell me to go to the doctor," I concluded. "I will try to get up my courage and go, or at least maybe tell someone. But I just want to know you are all there, and you love me. And maybe tell me that I am not old, or help me figure out how to accept getting old, because I just can't do it. And I don't have the faith or the courage to face life as a drooling old person who can't run or swim or climb mountains any more."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course, they all immediately started trying to get me to go to the doctor. "This is not a time for pontificating about old age and mountain climbing!" one scolded.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another sent me a link to a site on Bell's Palsy. I read it and recognized all of my symptoms. This made me feel better, but actually reduced my urgency to go in and get checked. Finally someone texted me and offered to propose some holistic options. We discussed vitamin B-12 and Omega-3 fish oil. Then, near the end of the conversation, she casually mentioned that while I was out getting the vitamins, I could drive by the Doctor's Care Center. I wouldn't have to go in if I didn't want to. And if I did go in, I wouldn't have to stay. Next thing I knew, I'd had my blood drawn and was on my way for an outpatient CT scan.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fast forward to now, and things could be worse. Bell's Palsy isn't really an "old person's" disease. George Clooney had it as a teenager. It isn't painful, and it's not life-threatening. But a personal trial for me, you can't hide it. If I go out in public, I have to admit what is going on. I don't know what the prognosis is -- it could go away in a few months, or I could have it for the rest of my life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And that brings me to the reason I'm posting about this. It's brought up a lot of spiritual angst. Am I supposed to learn something from this? Did I get this particular affliction because I'm too vain? Why don't I just have faith to be healed? Or is this just some random happening that is a part of mortality that God doesn't have much to do with?&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-8331210299038828769?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/8331210299038828769/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=8331210299038828769' title='4 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/8331210299038828769'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/8331210299038828769'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/02/thorn-in-flesh.html' title='Thorn in the Flesh'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>4</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-9134113364658964193</id><published>2011-01-05T22:12:00.002-05:00</published><updated>2011-01-05T22:13:53.241-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Whales'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Poetry'/><title type='text'>Whale Sounds are so Sad</title><content type='html'>This isn't reflective of me, really; except I'm a little blue, I have a lot of friends who are breaking up, and I heard a whale song today. It's the most mournful sound I can imagine. It really pricked my heart, so I wrote this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sea-Sighed Villanelle&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I heard a whale song's mournful tone&lt;br /&gt;The day the stars fell from the sky.&lt;br /&gt;I sat me down, the ocean moaned.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You would not stay, I could not go!&lt;br /&gt;I grasped you till my tears ran dry,&lt;br /&gt;I sang the whale song's mournful tone&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;but none sang back. And soon, alone,&lt;br /&gt;I finally had to say goodbye.&lt;br /&gt;I sat me down, began to moan.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The mist, the ocean, and its foam&lt;br /&gt;swallowed hope when you left -- I&lt;br /&gt;became a whale song's mournful tone.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wandered high, I drifted low,&lt;br /&gt;in nothingness bled painful sighs.&lt;br /&gt;I sat me down, began to moan.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I went when night winds start to blow,&lt;br /&gt;I waded out to shoulder-height&lt;br /&gt;I heard a whale song's mournful tone,&lt;br /&gt;I sat me down. The ocean moaned.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;object height="385" width="480"&gt;&lt;param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j0gC4SH1Bqk?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j0gC4SH1Bqk?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"&gt;&lt;/embed&gt;&lt;/object&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-9134113364658964193?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/9134113364658964193/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=9134113364658964193' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/9134113364658964193'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/9134113364658964193'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2011/01/whale-sounds-are-so-sad.html' title='Whale Sounds are so Sad'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7538039809108837915</id><published>2010-10-10T01:29:00.012-04:00</published><updated>2010-10-10T18:25:29.648-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Ambiguity'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Church policy'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Question'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='GLBT LDS'/><title type='text'>Scylla and Charybdis, Mingled with Scripture</title><content type='html'>According to ancient Greek myth, Scylla was a creature who was rooted to one spot in the ocean, and regularly ate sailors who passed by too closely.  Her appearance has varied in classical literature; she was described by Homer in The Odyssey as having six heads perched on long necks along with twelve feet, while in Ovid's Metamorphoses, she was depicted as having the upper body of a nymph, with her mid section composed of dog's heads.  Across a narrow strait from this fearsome nymph dwelt Charybdis, the daughter of Poseidon and Gaia.  She was depicted with a single gaping mouth that sucked in huge quantities of water, and belched them out three times a day, creating whirlpools.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In epic poetry, hero Odysseus lost his ship in Charybdis, but he managed to save himself by clinging to a tree overhanging the water. Later the whirlpool spat up the ship, and Odysseus dropped to safety on its deck.  Jason and the Argonauts were able to navigate through without incident due to Hera's assistance, while Aeneas was able to bypass the deadly strait altogether. "Between Scylla and Charybdis" (or the modern iteration "between a rock and a hard place") has become a way to describe the difficulty of maneuvering between two conflicting opinions; a predicament in which avoidance of either of two dangers means exposure to the other.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TLFL-JNzRVI/AAAAAAAAAl0/NMnldhKj49w/s1600/ScyllaAndCharybdis3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="275" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TLFL-JNzRVI/AAAAAAAAAl0/NMnldhKj49w/s640/ScyllaAndCharybdis3.jpg" width="555" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Myself, I’ve been hovering between Scylla and Charybdis for quite some time, and recent talks by our Apostles haven’t helped me navigate the voyage, but have only served to make the rocks seem more dangerous.  I am, of course, speaking of the Church’s involvement in gay rights issues and their advice to those with “same-sex attraction.”  In Boyd K. Packer’s recent General Conference talk, he referenced legal involvement in such issues by saying,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;“There are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s laws and nature… A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. Do you think a vote to repeal the law of gravity would do any good?”&lt;/blockquote&gt;Elder Dallin H. Oaks also gave a talk addressing the issue in a talk delivered September 17th at the Salt Lake City Tabernacle as part of a secular celebration of the Constitution’s 223rd birthday.  Elder Oaks emphasized that defining marriage is a power reserved to states, responding (as I see it) to the federal district court decision to overturn Proposition 8, California’s voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;“If the decisions of federal courts can override the actions of state lawmakers on this subject [marriage], we have suffered a significant constitutional reallocation of lawmaking power from the lawmaking branch to the judicial branch and from the states to the federal government.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;Here’s my dilemma: All of my adult life in the Church I have listened to cautions from the pulpit that the Church maintains political neutrality and that members should vote their conscience.  My conscience and what I can understand from scientific evidence tells me that homosexuality is a complicated condition, consisting in at least some cases of natural and inborn tendencies.  Thus, I don’t believe in legislating the behavior of people who are not members of the Church.  But since the 2000 initiative of Proposition 22 in California (at which time I was a resident of the state), the Church has entered the political arena in a large way, asking for support from its members.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I’ve pondered the Church’s stance, it has not escaped me that scriptural passages supported by modern revelation teach that in these Last Days people’s eyes will be blinded and they will not be able to discern the truth.  What happens in your mind as you read this passage in Isaiah?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! &amp;nbsp;Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=isa+5:20-21&amp;amp;do=Search&amp;amp;anonymous_element_1_changed=search"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: black;"&gt;Isa 5:20-21&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;As I read these things, I think that it is possible that my comprehension of the truth might be in error and the climate of scientific rationalism in which I was raised has limited my perception of spiritual veracity.  Should I place more credence in what is being taught by those who I have accepted as my spiritual guides?  But even as I reach into my pocketbook to contribute to political campaigns, as I hold the sign that’s been given to me to be placed in my yard, as I stare at the telephone list I am expected to contact, I realize that these actions would pit me against what both my heart and my intellect tell me deep inside.  I am caught between the Scylla of religious devotion/spiritual submission and the Charybdis of personal integrity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There have been several places to discuss the various iterations of Boyd K. Packer’s talk, including the following:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.mormonmentality.org/2010/10/06/parsing-packer.htm"&gt;Parsing Packer&lt;/a&gt; at Mormon Mentality (did he say what we thought he said?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/10/why-would-our-heavenly-father-do-that-to-anyone/"&gt;Why Would Our HF&lt;/a&gt; at T&amp;amp;S (why would God do that to anyone?  and why would BKP say that?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;I&lt;a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/10/i-thought-he-asked-a-really-good-question-actually/"&gt; Thought he asked a Really Good Question&lt;/a&gt; at T&amp;amp;S (is BKP on board with the newer, softer position of the Church regarding gays?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/3496/talking_back_to_a_mormon_elder:_religion_versus_reality/"&gt;Talking Back to a Mormon Elder&lt;/a&gt; at Religion Dispatches (what do you do when religion doesn't match up with reality?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1275"&gt;Departing the Text&lt;/a&gt; at Nine Moons (what do the changes mean?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1275"&gt;Changes to President Packer's Conference Talk&lt;/a&gt; at FMH (are you soothed by the changes?)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Here I hope to further the discussion by examining the dilemma of a committed Latter-day Saint who hesitates to legislate marriages in the wider population.  Isaiah makes it clear what the Lord’s opinion is regarding those who choose to ignore the debate:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: black;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=rev+3:15-16&amp;amp;do=Search&amp;amp;anonymous_element_1_changed=search"&gt;Rev 3:15-16)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Elder Oaks and President Packer have brought the debate to the fore, making it almost cowardly not to take a stand either way.  Is it the better part of valor to show loyalty to my Church leaders, to keep my covenant of not speaking against the “Lord’s anointed,” to defend their position?  Or shall I speak my own convictions, realizing they could be seriously in error and place me outside the pale of Church membership, even jeopardizing my very salvation?&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-7538039809108837915?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/7538039809108837915/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=7538039809108837915' title='3 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7538039809108837915'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7538039809108837915'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/10/scylla-and-charybdis-mingled-with.html' title='Scylla and Charybdis, Mingled with Scripture'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TLFL-JNzRVI/AAAAAAAAAl0/NMnldhKj49w/s72-c/ScyllaAndCharybdis3.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>3</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-2288059229147085892</id><published>2010-10-06T11:05:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2010-10-06T13:41:02.703-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Poetry'/><title type='text'>Nearsighted</title><content type='html'>When I put these glasses on,&lt;br /&gt;There are blades of grass&lt;br /&gt;That before I could not see,&lt;br /&gt;And petals when I pass.&lt;br /&gt;I see each point of starry light&lt;br /&gt;Away up in the sky--&lt;br /&gt;Shapes and shadows not discerned&lt;br /&gt;with my imperfect eye.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;O might I put some glasses on,&lt;br /&gt;The face of God to see?&lt;br /&gt;Or little indications that&lt;br /&gt;He lives and loveth me?&lt;br /&gt;For now, my vision's darkened, and&lt;br /&gt;The world is cold and gray:&lt;br /&gt;The blurry gloom that comes at night&lt;br /&gt;When He is far away.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TKy0mYSgd7I/AAAAAAAAAls/_BWeRQDbbeM/s1600/nearsighted.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TKy0mYSgd7I/AAAAAAAAAls/_BWeRQDbbeM/s1600/nearsighted.jpg" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-2288059229147085892?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/2288059229147085892/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=2288059229147085892' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2288059229147085892'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/2288059229147085892'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/10/nearsighted.html' title='Nearsighted'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/TKy0mYSgd7I/AAAAAAAAAls/_BWeRQDbbeM/s72-c/nearsighted.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-5758449980862350810</id><published>2010-10-04T01:11:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2010-10-04T01:25:31.175-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Blogging'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Question'/><title type='text'>Should I Tell My Story, or Let it Go?</title><content type='html'>I haven't posted here in quite a while, so I don't know if any one is still checking this site out. &amp;nbsp;But if you are, I'd like your input. &amp;nbsp;Last week, as you may be aware, there was quite a debacle over at Mormon Matters, a blog which I've been co-administrating for the past 2 years. &amp;nbsp;John Dehlin, the owner and founder of the blog has told his story of what happened &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/09/29/what-happened-at-mormon-matters/"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. &amp;nbsp;If you want links to where it's been discussed around the Bloggernacle, go &lt;a href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/10/03/wheat-and-tares/"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. &amp;nbsp;But I haven't told my side of the story publicly. &amp;nbsp;I'm thinking it might be best to just let it go. &amp;nbsp;By now, it's water under the bridge, because, GUESS WHAT! &amp;nbsp;The bloggers that got "released" at Mormon Matters have started a new blog. &amp;nbsp;I hope you'll visit us over at&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: x-large;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="background-color: white;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: #274e13;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.wheatandtares.org/"&gt;Wheat and Tares&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://wheatandtares.org/images/header.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"&gt;&lt;img border="0" height="64" src="http://wheatandtares.org/images/header.png" width="320" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: x-large;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="background-color: white;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if you're reading, leave me a comment here. &amp;nbsp;Do you think I should spill my version of events on my personal blog? &amp;nbsp;Or should I just move on?&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-5758449980862350810?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/5758449980862350810/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=5758449980862350810' title='11 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5758449980862350810'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5758449980862350810'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/10/should-i-tell-my-story-or-let-it-go.html' title='Should I Tell My Story, or Let it Go?'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>11</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-835622074998066191</id><published>2010-08-26T07:34:00.006-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:15:14.905-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Yom Kippur and the Symbolism of Jonah's Spiritual Journey</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-bible category-lds-lessons category-prophets category-scripture category-symbols tag-old-testament-sunday-school y2010 m08 d26 h01 alt" id="post-12568" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;OT SS Lesson #33 -- &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"&gt;originally posted at &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/"&gt;Mormon Matters&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;If your ward happens to be just a little bit behind on the Sunday School lessons, you might experience the synchronicity of having the Book of Jonah read on Yom Kippur. &amp;nbsp;This year, the Jewish holiday falls on September 18 (close enough to Sunday the 19th!) and Jonah is traditionally read as part of the celebration.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Yom Kippur&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;(the Day of Atonement) is the holiest and most widely observed day on the Jewish calendar. &amp;nbsp;It is a day of fasting, lengthy confession of sins, prayer, and repentance. &amp;nbsp;Jonah’s prophecy is included in the liturgy for that day as a symbolic spiritual journey that each person undertakes. &amp;nbsp;I think the symbolism in Jonah’s story is very meaningful and I’d like to explore it in depth here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span id="more-12568" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Jonah2.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-12582" height="305" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Jonah2.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; margin-bottom: 20px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" title="Jonah2" width="420" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The message of Jonah’s prophecy resonates within the human soul. We are born with a subconscious realization of the fact that we have a mission. We seek escape, because our mission is often one that we are afraid to attempt. Jonah’s story begins when he is given a mission from the Lord and he flees to Joppa and there boards a ship to Tarshish. &amp;nbsp;These places actually exist, but the&amp;nbsp;meaning of the names of these cities are “beauty” and “wealth.” &amp;nbsp;We comfort ourselves externally by escaping from our inner knowledge of our mission through the pursuit of wealth, and by surrounding ourselves with worldly beauty.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The water journey is powerfully symbolic in literature. &amp;nbsp;Beginning with ancient sources in a number of cultures and languages, a hero’s voyage across the waters evokes adventure, danger, growth, and self-discovery. &amp;nbsp;Included in this canon is the ancient Mesopotamian story of Gilgamesh: one man’s search for immortality. &amp;nbsp;Although widely known for its parallel to the Biblical story of the Flood, this is a work which stands on its own. &amp;nbsp;It illuminates human relationships, experiences and feelings: loneliness, love, loss, revenge, regret, endurance, joy and sorrow, and the fear of oblivion that comes with death. &amp;nbsp;The Celtic narrative of Brendan the Navigator is a water quest designed to bring him into engagement with God. &amp;nbsp;His journey is cyclic; it takes he and his fellow travelers seven years to arrive at a place that was never so far from their starting point. &amp;nbsp;The Rime of the Ancient Mariner is a more modern water journey — an exploration of the significance of nature in a world characterized by religious uncertainty. &amp;nbsp;In all of these pieces, the human on a quest for immortality learns something important about death and life, the Divine, and his own inner soul.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jonah3.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="alignright size-full wp-image-12590" height="162" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jonah3.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 50px; margin-right: 50px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="jonah3" width="230" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;In these water journeys, the ship is meaningful and symbolic of the human body. We face moments in life in which the fragility of our bodies is inescapable, as in when we face illness, or confront times of danger that seem to last an eternity until they are resolved. Jonah’s weakness is apparent in the story, but he also shows moments of triumph, as when he asks the sailors to cast him into the sea so that they may continue their voyage unencumbered; or when he prays in the belly of the great fish. As with Jonah, our recognition of our own vulnerability can bring us to finally transcend our ego, surrendering our desire to control events, and beginning at last to accept our mission in life, no matter what it is. &amp;nbsp;We can suffer the vicissitudes of life, and recognize that we ourselves have caused the storms to toss us back and forth. We can move forward to fulfill our purpose, but we are still not free of conflict and anxiety until we finally recognize that every step along the way, we are embraced by Divine compassion.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The great fish is the symbol of confrontation of the recognition that our ultimate fate is the grave. Each must have his or her days of darkness in the belly of the fish, facing the reality of death. For some, that recognition almost feels like a welcome refuge. For others, facing death forces them at last into pursuing life!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Finally, notice that with his desire to escape his mission, Jonah did not fear failure. &amp;nbsp;His fear was that his preaching would have an effect on the pagan people he was sent to, and they would also become God’s chosen people. &amp;nbsp;No, he wasn’t afraid of failure, but success! &amp;nbsp;This reminds me of an excerpt from&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Return to Love&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;by Marianne Williamson (often erroneously attributed to Nelson Mandela):&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h3 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 1.8em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 25px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Our Greatest Fear —Marianne Williamson&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.&lt;br /&gt;It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,&amp;nbsp;talented and fabulous?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Actually, who are you not to be?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;You are a child of God.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Your playing small does not serve the world.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;There’s nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other&amp;nbsp;people won’t feel insecure around you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;We were born to make manifest the glory of&amp;nbsp;God that is within us.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;And as we let our own light shine,&lt;br /&gt;we unconsciously give other people&lt;br /&gt;permission to do the same.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;As we are liberated from our own fear,&lt;br /&gt;Our presence automatically liberates others.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Jonah.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="alignright size-full wp-image-12584" height="361" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Jonah.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 100px; margin-right: 100px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="Jonah" width="300" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 60px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jonah is hardly the only prophet who was reluctant to respond to God’s call.&amp;nbsp;Even Moses, the greatest of all prophets, tried to persuade God to send somebody else. Jonah was not the only prophet to show human weakness. &amp;nbsp;But in the end, Jonah’s tale even becomes a symbolic representation of the Savior, when the Lord identifies the three days and nights in the fish’s belly as analogous with what he himself will have to face (&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/12/39-41#39" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Matt 12:39-41&lt;/a&gt;). Through his spiritual journey, Jonah learned to “&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;think different&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;“: to embrace his mission, to accept and work with his unique talents and failings, to develop compassion for his fellow man.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is then that we are ready to return to God. While for each of us the path is our own, and never yet explored by any other person, Jonah knew the beginning and the end of the journey that we all make.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;object height="390" width="640"&gt;&lt;param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4oAB83Z1ydE&amp;hl=en_US&amp;feature=player_embedded&amp;version=3"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4oAB83Z1ydE&amp;hl=en_US&amp;feature=player_embedded&amp;version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"&gt;&lt;/embed&gt;&lt;/object&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Yom Kippur and the Symbolism of Jonah’s Spiritual Journey"&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;12&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Yom Kippur and the Symbolism of Jonah’s Spiritual Journey”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h04 alt" id="comment-146851" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;DrPepper&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146851" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 10:38 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Gorgeous. Thank you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h06" id="comment-146863" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Rigel Hawthorne&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146863" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 12:00 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jonah…flees to Joppa; we comfort ourselves externally by escaping from our inner knowledge of our mission through the pursuit of wealth, and by surrounding ourselves with worldly beauty.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I found the symbolism of Jonah illuminated in the book, The Peacemaker–by James Ferrell insightful. He elaborated that Jonah’s escape not only revolved around lack of desire to preach to the Ninevites, but unwillingness to accept that the Ninevites were deserving of the message of salvation, or of forgiveness. The Lord was willing to forgive the Ninevites and have them brought into the fold, but Jonah wasn’t ready himself to see the Ninevites in the same light.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thus we can also liken ourselves to Jonah when we are unwilling to forgive others, even though when Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world. “Through his spiritual journey, Jonah learned to “think different“”, as we also do when we have a better understanding of the atonement.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h07 alt" id="comment-146879" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;FireTag&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146879" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 1:23 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BiV:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Excellent post and analysis. I need the reminder often to not run away from my own missions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 byuser comment-author-jeff-spector c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h08" id="comment-146895" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jeff Spector&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146895" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 2:16 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The Book of Jonah is one of two Haftorah readings (from the prophets) which are read on Yom Kippur. The other is Isaiah 57:14–58:14, which is read during the morning portion of the service. The entire Book of Jonah is read in the afternoon. The Haftorah is read every Sabbath and most holidays and is meant to amplify either the Torah reading for that Sabbath or the meaning of the holiday. There is a set schedule of these readings.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;while the Jews celebrate Yom Kippur as a High holiday of fasting and repentance once a year, we Latter-day Saints do this remembrance, and asking forgiveness for our sins on a weekly (48 out of 52) basis and fast monthly. Seems to me, if you have to wait all year to ask forgiveness, you might forget some of your indiscretions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I see the Book of Jonah to have three important lessons:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;1. Do what you are told by God or something bad may happen.&lt;br /&gt;2. Everyone is worthy of forgiveness&lt;br /&gt;3. God decides whom he will forgive.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c5 byuser comment-author-jeff-spector c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h08 alt" id="comment-146896" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jeff Spector&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146896" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 2:16 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Oh, and BIV, very nice post.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c6 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h08" id="comment-146903" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://martinmusings.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Martin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146903" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 2:46 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BiV, I really enjoyed this. My Western, literal-thinking mind misses a lot of the good stuff in the OT, and your posts help me to find it. Thanks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c7 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h10 alt" id="comment-146917" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146917" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 4:43 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I really enjoyed this as well. The fear of success, I like that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c8 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d26 c-h11" id="comment-146921" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mike S&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-146921" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:04 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thank you. Great post.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c9 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d27 c-h19 alt" id="comment-147177" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ted&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-147177" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 28th, 2010 at 1:36 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jonah is the prophet I’ve identified with the most in my life. He can be so faithful and humble, and yet so stubborn at the same time. for the longest time on my mission, I was like Jonah preaching, secretly hoping it would make my area accountable enough so that God could finally nuke the darn place, Sodom and Gomorrah style. It took some time before I finally understood the same thing God teaches Jonah in the end.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c10 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d29 c-h12" id="comment-147454" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.millennialstar.org/author/jabenson/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;JA Benson&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-147454" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 29th, 2010 at 6:21 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thank you BiV. Lovely.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c11 c-y2010 c-m09 c-d01 c-h19 alt" id="comment-148129" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;reed russell&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/26/yom-kippur-jonah-spiritual-journey/#comment-148129" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Sep 2nd, 2010 at 1:54 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Very beautiful and very helpful, Cheryl. Thank you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-835622074998066191?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/835622074998066191/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=835622074998066191' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/835622074998066191'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/835622074998066191'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/08/yom-kippur-and-symbolism-of-jonahs.html' title='Yom Kippur and the Symbolism of Jonah&apos;s Spiritual Journey'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-5297497334646765358</id><published>2010-08-19T07:47:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:15:37.647-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Adversity and Job</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-lds-lessons category-momron tag-doctrine tag-old-testament-sunday-school tag-theology y2010 m08 d18 h22 alt" id="post-12510" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;OT SS Lesson #32 -- &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"&gt;originally posted at &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#more-12510"&gt;Mormon Matters&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;After the Satan figure is given permission to afflict Job as a test of his faithfulness, three of Job’s friends, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar, come to visit him, sitting with him in silence for seven days. On the seventh day, Job speaks, beginning a conversation in which each of the four men shares thoughts on Job’s afflictions and adversity in general in profound poetic statements. &amp;nbsp;This is a lengthy dialogue between characters who alter their moods, question their motives, change their minds, and undercut each other with sarcasm and innuendo. Although Job comes closest to doing so, no single character articulates one true or authoritative opinion. Each speaker has his own flaws as well as his own lofty moments of observation or astute theological insight. &amp;nbsp;I believe the Book of Job is a jumping-off point for the reader to deeply explore questions of theodicy and the difficulty of understanding why an all-powerful God allows good people to suffer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span id="more-12510" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/job.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="alignleft size-full wp-image-12516" height="278" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/job.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 30px; margin-right: 30px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="job" width="384" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Eliphaz believes that Job’s agony must be due to some sin Job has committed, and he urges Job to seek God’s favor. Bildad and Zophar agree that Job must have committed evil to offend God’s justice and argue that he should strive to exhibit more blameless behavior. Bildad surmises that Job’s children brought their deaths upon themselves. Even worse, Zophar implies that whatever wrong Job has done probably deserves greater punishment than what he has received. &amp;nbsp;A character who is introduced later in the book, Elihu, also assumes that Job must be wicked to be suffering as he is, and he thinks that Job’s excessive talking is an act of rebellion against God.&amp;nbsp;The interaction between Job and his friends shows the folly of trying to understand God’s ways. &amp;nbsp;The reader is privy to the information that Job has been righteous and the adversity comes from a bargain that has been made between God and Satan. &amp;nbsp;The fault of Job and his friends lies in trying to explain the nature of God with only the limited information available to human knowledge, as God himself notes when he roars from the whirlwind, “Who is this that darkness counsel / by words without / knowledge?” (&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/job/38/1,2#1,2" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;38:2&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In spite of the criticism of his friends, Job believes that there is a “witness” or a “Redeemer” in heaven who will vouch for his innocence (&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/job/16/19#19" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;16:19&lt;/a&gt;,&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/job/19/25#25" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;19:25&lt;/a&gt;). After a while, the upbraiding proves too much for Job, and he grows sarcastic, impatient, and afraid. He laments the injustice that God lets wicked people prosper while he and countless other innocent people suffer. &amp;nbsp;He feels that wisdom is hidden from human minds, but he resolves to persist in pursuing wisdom by fearing God and avoiding evil.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 35px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;li style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Why DOES a loving and an all-powerful God allow human suffering?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Here is an explanation I heard in Houston, Texas, and I think it has a lot of merit. It’s distinctly LDS, it’s very simple, and it combines several of the common theodicies.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 35px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 25px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;The&amp;nbsp;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Good&lt;/strong&gt;&amp;nbsp;Adversity&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The first type of adversity one might experience can be said to be “good.” It is the kind of adversity that exists to strengthen the human soul. It may be a result of living in a fallen world. Just as a corollary to living we knock up against all kinds of adversity, such as natural disasters. I would add that not all people will choose to use this type of suffering as a chance to grow, but that is its purpose, and theoretically it is possible to overcome, and to learn from it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 25px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;The&amp;nbsp;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Bad&lt;/strong&gt;&amp;nbsp;Adversity&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Another type of adversity that exists in the world comes as a result of bad choices that we make. This goes along with the scripture “Wickedness never was happinesss.” In general, right living leads to peace, prosperity, and happiness, while wickedness, evil, and sin will tend to cause misery and pain. Note that this principle is not the only factor leading to suffering. That is why it may appear that a righteous person is experiencing much more adversity than his/her wicked neighbor.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 25px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;The&amp;nbsp;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ugly&lt;/strong&gt;&amp;nbsp;Adversity&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ugly adversity occurs when another person’s free agency conflicts with someone else’s life. God allows us to make our own life choices and rarely interferes. Thus innocent humans may suffer as a result of someone’s poor choices. Latter-day Saints believe passionately that free agency is a vital ingredient for attaining sanctification. Thus ugly adversity must exist, causing unneeded suffering. Why did God organize the world this way? Because without choosing freely we could never develop the qualities necessary for godhood.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Now it’s your turn! How do you explain the problem of evil and adversity in the world? &amp;nbsp;Could an omnipotent God have created free beings that were already morally perfect, thus eliminating the need for adversity? &amp;nbsp;Does the Book of Job illuminate or obscure our understanding of this principle? &amp;nbsp;How do you understand and come to terms with adversity in your life?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Adversity: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"&gt;19&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;19&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Adversity: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d18 c-h23 alt" id="comment-145785" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145785" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 5:39 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Here are some thoughts I had a long time ago:&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://adrr.com/living/ss_1.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;http://adrr.com/living/ss_1.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d18 c-h23" id="comment-145786" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145786" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 5:45 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;And there is the series I did a while back&amp;nbsp;&lt;img alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial !important; border-color: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-style: initial; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial !important; border-width: initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/11/affliction-final-post-in-the-series/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/11/affliction-final-post-in-the-series/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h01 alt" id="comment-145793" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mike S&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145793" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 7:41 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;It seems like a foregone conclusion. If something good happens, there is a philosophy to explain why that is from God. If something bad happens, there is also an explanation why that is also from God. If it’s because of someone else’s decision, that is also allowed by God. The result of this philosophy is that everything comes from God (which is likely much more true than we generally think). The result of this, however, doesn’t really give us any practical tools to deal with the inevitable suffering in this world. In good times or bad, the counsel is the same: pray, read the scriptures, go to Church, pay your tithing, etc. But these often don’t help. The thing that has helped me deal with suffering the most is Buddhism. Instead of trying to figure out the cause of affliction, focus on alleviating it. Dealing with this problem forms the “core” of Buddhism.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Life is suffering. Suffering has a cause. There can be an end to suffering. There is a path to reach this end.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This makes much more sense to me than trying to figure out “why” good things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people… When someone is shot with an arrow, does it make the most sense to figure out who shot the arrow, what type of material the wood is made out of, why the person got shot, where the shooter was standing, etc.? Or does it make more sense to simply remove the arrow and treat the wound?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h02" id="comment-145801" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonmatters.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;GBSmith&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145801" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 8:56 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Bart Ehrman’s book, “God’s Problem” is a good review of the problem of evil and suffering. IMHO God doesn’t have anything to do with either the good, bad or ugly. Life just is.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c5 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h03 alt" id="comment-145807" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://rainscamedown.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SilverRain&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145807" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 9:53 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mike S.—Generally speaking, it makes the most sense to figure out the who/what/why first, and remove/treat later because without the former knowledge, you won’t have what you need to act in the best way possible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;After all, it would be pointless if you got shot in the middle of helping the other victim because you didn’t bother to evaluate what immediate information you can get.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The same thing is true in spiritual application. You need to figure out what you are doing wrong before treating the symptoms. There is certainly a point at which obsessing over the whys ceases to gain you any new information. At that point, you switch from information-gathering to action. The trick is knowing when that point is reached.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I think the story of Job is powerful for me because there was nothing Job could DO to fix the problem. That is partly why the entire poem was illustrated in scripture. After a whole chunk of history that focused strictly on what was to be done, here is a story that illustrates that even after you’ve done everything right, sometimes things just happen and you have to build a relationship of trust with the Lord to get through.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;And also, interestingly, the Lord does not leave him to wonder and despair without giving him an answer eventually. Job was not wrong to ask why he suffered what he did, he was wrong because he spent his time focusing on himself rather than God. He was trying to justify himself, turn himself into a martyr. To his friends, rather than&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/job/34/31-32#31" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;saying&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;“I don’t know what I did wrong, if anything I will not do it again, but I know that God is great and there must be a reason for it, even if I don’t understand it,” he&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/job/34/5-9#5" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;said&lt;/a&gt;, essentially, “I did nothing wrong! All of these things are happening to me for no reason.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;He presumed to judge himself, rather than leaving judgment up to God.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I’m grateful for this lesson right now. Thanks, BiV.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c6 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h04" id="comment-145813" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Will&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145813" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 10:15 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I would add that there is also a type of adversity that is “Neutral.” It is just a part of mortality. Some illnesses, job losses, etc. may come not because God has inflicted it on us to teach us a lesson, not because we did anything wrong to deserve it, and not because of another person’s poor choices, but merely because it is part of life and life (or $%!^) happens.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c7 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h05 alt" id="comment-145820" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thomas&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145820" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 11:56 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I would say that the LDS doctrine of exaltation is one of the better ways to rationalize the theodicy problem. If the traditional conception of man’s origin and eternal destiny is correct — i.e., that people were created&amp;nbsp;&lt;i style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt;&amp;nbsp;and are destined to be angels (remaining fundamentally different beings from God), then there’s really no reason for a decent God not to have just created people morally and physically perfect in the first place, and skipped the whole “vale of tears” bit altogether.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;But if man was Something co-eternally with God, and if man is to become like God — and if God is, by definition, a being that has overcome a physical universe characterized by random chance, with all its unfairnesses and landmines — then by definition, the only way to become like God, in every sense, is to pass through that kind of a universe.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thus, I don’t think that God intentionally sends us crap to refine us. The world will throw plenty of refiner’s fire at us on its own, thank you very much, either through hardships that threaten to break us, or prosperity that threatens to corrupt us (upon which we proceed to break ourselves). But all adversity is “good,” in the sense that all&amp;nbsp;&lt;i style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;experience&lt;/i&gt;&amp;nbsp;is good; hardship and advantage are both inherent parts of life, which is overall a good thing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c8 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h06" id="comment-145829" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mike S&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145829" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 12:57 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#6: Thomas: “…and if man is to become like God…”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;As President Hinckley said in 1997, “I don’t know that we teach that anymore.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c9 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h07 alt" id="comment-145830" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Martin&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145830" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 1:01 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I heard a different version of categorizing adverstity: that which we bring upon ourselves by our choices, that which other people bring upon us because of their choices, and that which simply happens as part of mortality. Taken together, these three provide the opposition necessary in all things for our mortal experience. Similar, but not quite the same perspective as the OP.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c10 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h07" id="comment-145841" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thomas&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145841" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 1:51 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#7 — Mike, I do get the impression the Church was backing off the “As man now is, God once was” part of Lorenzo Snow’s “couplet” at one point (the pendulum now seems to have swung back a bit from neo-orthodoxy), but reading President Hinckley’s remarks in context, I didn’t at all get the impression that he was indicating a back-away from the doctrine of exaltation. That goes, IMO, only when the Church goes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c11 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h12 alt" id="comment-145877" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonmatters.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;GBSmith&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145877" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 6:43 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“but reading President Hinckley’s remarks in context, I didn’t at all get the impression that he was indicating a back-away from the doctrine of exaltation.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The day after that statement he was at BYU and reassured the student body that he really did have an understanding of the doctrine.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c12 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h14" id="comment-145883" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;brjones&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145883" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 8:23 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“In general, right living leads to peace, prosperity, and happiness, while wickedness, evil, and sin will tend to cause misery and pain.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I realize this is somewhat of a tired issue, but I don’t believe there’s any evidence of this principle, even generally speaking. It is at best subjectively true.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c13 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h15 alt" id="comment-145886" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145886" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 9:05 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thomas — you’ve hit a key point.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mike S — you’ve twisted what he said, all in all. We definitely follow the Bible in believing that we can become heirs and joint heirs with Christ.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;brjones — as Paul said, if we look for the results in this life only, we would of all men be the most miserable. The principle is true only in an eternal context.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c14 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h15" id="comment-145888" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;brjones&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145888" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 9:37 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Stephen M, I would actually take issue with Paul’s statement as well, but in general I’m ok with that position. The problem is that most people, I think, use a much more temporal standard by which to judge the truth of the axiom at issue. And although I’m sure BIV would agree with your comment, as the OP seems to be discussing primarily how we deal with trials in the here and now, I think the applicability of her statement can appropriately be applied to this life. From that perspective, not only do I think it’s just a false statement, but I think it’s a potentially dangerous one.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c15 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h16 alt" id="comment-145890" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;GBSmith&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145890" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 10:16 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When people take the “law irrevocably decreed…” literally it can be a setup for a fall because it can lead to feeling entitled. That is a sure path to disappointment and at its worst, dangerous. We may be able to control how we feel and respond to life but I don’t believe we can in any way make God do what we want him to do for our ease or comfort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c16 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d19 c-h22" id="comment-145905" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Aaron R.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145905" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 20th, 2010 at 4:50 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I like the Book of Job specifically because it seems to resist an adequate theodicy. Instead it wants to put our trust in God regardless of what happens to us. I think this is in part because God himself still struggles with the question of theodicy.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c17 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d20 c-h05 alt" id="comment-145950" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;aquinas&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145950" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 20th, 2010 at 11:21 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I think one lesson that is clear from the Book of Job is that anyone who suffers deeply can expect that suffering to increase because, inevitably, someone is going to come along and try to explain to that person the cause of their suffering. I think that an unavoidable part of suffering is having to deal with perhaps well-intentioned individuals who think they have an answer. And Job’s friends are offering answers from scripture too. One of them even cites Proverbs to Job. Yet, the Book of Job doesn’t seem to think very highly of such attempts. Job certainly does not. I see one message of the Book of Job is to be very careful when seeking to dispense reasons for suffering. In the end, God is angry because none of Job’s friends spoke right about God, and even tells the friends they had better ask Job to intercede on their behalf.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c18 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d20 c-h07" id="comment-145964" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;hawkgrrrl&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145964" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 20th, 2010 at 1:08 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BiV – I love how you’ve laid this out into these 3 categories. Something I will be thinking about for a long time to come. Great thinking!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c19 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d20 c-h13 alt" id="comment-145998" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/19/adversity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-145998" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 20th, 2010 at 7:22 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;b style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I think one lesson that is clear from the Book of Job is that anyone who suffers deeply can expect that suffering to increase because, inevitably, someone is going to come along and try to explain to that person the cause of their suffering.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;That is surely the truth.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-5297497334646765358?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/5297497334646765358/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=5297497334646765358' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5297497334646765358'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/5297497334646765358'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/08/adversity-and-job.html' title='Adversity and Job'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-4082444916932469927</id><published>2010-08-14T08:19:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:15:55.356-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Sophia of the Proverbs and the Feminine Divine</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-god category-lds-lessons category-momron category-feminism tag-god tag-old-testament-sunday-school tag-scripture tag-theology y2010 m08 d13 h22 alt" id="post-12475" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;OT SS Lesson #31 -- &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"&gt;originally posted at &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/"&gt;Mormon Matters&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Feminist readers of the scriptures are well aware of the passages in&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/prov/8" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Proverbs 8&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;which personify Wisdom (GK Sophia, HEB Hokhmah).&lt;br /&gt;These passages affirm that Sophia was there when God made the earth and acted as a partner with God in the creation. This idea fits in well with my conceptualization of the male/female duality of the Divine. The passages can be interpreted as instructions to the earnest seeker to discover and follow the promptings of a Heavenly Mother:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span id="more-12475" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/quote.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 10px 0px; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; color: #333333; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 50px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/sophiabeginning.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="alignright size-full wp-image-12478" height="376" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/sophiabeginning.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 55px; margin-right: 55px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="sophiabeginning" width="189" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When there were no depths, I was brought forth;&lt;br /&gt;When there were no fountains abounding with water.&lt;br /&gt;Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:&lt;br /&gt;While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When he prepared the heavens, I was there:&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When he set a compass upon the face of the depth:&lt;br /&gt;When he established the clouds above:&lt;br /&gt;When he strengthened the fountains of the deep:&lt;br /&gt;When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment:&lt;br /&gt;When he appointed the foundations of the earth:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;,&lt;/big&gt;&amp;nbsp;rejoicing always before him;&lt;br /&gt;Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;&lt;br /&gt;And my delights were with the sons of men.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children:&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;For blessed are they that keep my ways.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.&lt;br /&gt;Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;For whoso findeth me findeth life,&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&amp;nbsp;and shall obtain favour of the LORD. (Prov. 8:23-35)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;If we are ever going to discuss the Divine Feminine in our 2010 Old Testament study, this is the lesson to do it. Many biblical scholars feel that the personification of Wisdom in the Proverbs represents a female Divinity. &amp;nbsp;In these verses Sophia addresses Israel as her children with the authority of a Divine Being, and has great power and dominion. &amp;nbsp; She is a “tree of life” (Prov. 3:18), connecting her with other Near-Eastern deities as well as the source of eternal life in the Book of Mormon.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In the scriptures, there is additional female imagery which tends to support the existence of a feminine counterpart to God. I hesitate to use them as proof-texts for a Mother in Heaven. These passages can just as well be interpreted to mean that a male Deity has loving and nurturing characteristics. However, if one believes, as I do, that “Elohim” consists of both a Mother and a Father God, the verses that follow add welcome insight into possible roles and characteristics of a Divine Mother Goddess.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;One of the early titles for God in the Old Testament is&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;El Shaddai&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;. This word has been translated “Almighty God,” or “God of the Mountains.” It may have linguistic ties to the word “breast,” prompting some to translate&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;El Shaddai&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;as “the breasted One.” Though I might not go as far as to use this translation, I enjoy the word play which is typical of Hebrew writing and which connects this title of God to breasts and nurturing. In the language used in Jacob’s blessing to his son Joseph in Genesis 49,&amp;nbsp;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;El Shaddai&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/strong&gt;gives him&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/quote.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 10px 0px; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; color: #333333; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 50px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Isaiah uses many feminine images of God in his writings. Consider the following:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 35px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" type="DISC"&gt;&lt;li style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=isa+42%3A14" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Isaiah 42:14&lt;/a&gt;–a woman in labor whose forceful breath is an image of divine power.&lt;img alt="" class="alignright size-full wp-image-12485" height="320" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/sophiaa.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 35px; margin-right: 35px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="sophiaa" width="240" /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=isa+46%3A3-4" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Isaiah 46:3-4&lt;/a&gt;–a mother who births and protects Israel.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=isa+49%3A14-15&amp;amp;do=Search" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Isaiah 49:14-15&lt;/a&gt;–a mother who does not forget the child she nurses.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=isa+66%3A12-13" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Isaiah 66:12-13&lt;/a&gt;–a mother who comforts her children.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The following poem in&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=hosea+11:1-4&amp;amp;do=Search" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Hosea 11:1-4&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;is in the first person, presenting God as a mother who calls, teaches, holds, heals, and feeds her son.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/quote.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 10px 0px; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; color: #333333; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 50px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When Israel was a child, I loved him,&lt;br /&gt;And out of Egypt I called My son.&lt;br /&gt;The more I called them, the more they went from me;&lt;br /&gt;They sacrificed to the Baals,&lt;br /&gt;And burned incense to carved images.&lt;br /&gt;Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk, I took them up in my arms;&lt;br /&gt;but they did not know that I healed them.&lt;br /&gt;I drew them with gentle cords,&lt;br /&gt;With bands of love,&lt;br /&gt;And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck.&lt;br /&gt;I stooped and fed them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;It is possible that Hosea is indirectly presenting God as mother over against the fertility goddess of the Canaanite religion that he is challenging.&lt;br /&gt;Interestingly, Hosea presents God as the husband figure in Hosea chapter 4, and the mother figure in chapter 11. These paired images suggest the male/female duality of God.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Searching for feminine images in the scriptures is a fruitful pursuit. There are many other examples too numerous to list here. I realize that different conclusions can be drawn from the presence of the Divine Feminine in scripture. Some faith traditions have posited that God is genderless, yet “accommodates to human limitations by using physical, relational, gender-laden images for self-disclosure.” Others believe that God is solely masculine and patriarchal but possesses qualities that we culturally see as feminine. &amp;nbsp;My inclination is to picture “Elohim” as a God consisting of both a male and female element. &amp;nbsp;I present this view as one which aligns with the Proclamation on the Family where it affirms the eternal nature of gender:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 30px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose&lt;/em&gt;.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 30px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/StealingSaturn.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-12479" height="224" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/StealingSaturn.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" title="StealingSaturn" width="443" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;small style="color: #777777; font-size: 0.9em; line-height: 1.5em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Images by&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://www.kathysart.com/" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Kathy Ostman-Magnusen&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Sophia of the Proverbs and the Feminine Divine"&gt;15&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;15&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Sophia of the Proverbs and the Feminine Divine”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h01 alt" id="comment-145089" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;cadams&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145089" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 14th, 2010 at 7:52 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Moses 7:48 seems to be another matriarchal reference.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h03" id="comment-145092" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://sciencebysteve.net/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SteveP&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145092" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 14th, 2010 at 9:00 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Very nice post. If I ever get out of Nursery I will draw out these scriptures in class. Thanks!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 byuser comment-author-stephen-marsh c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h09 alt" id="comment-145115" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen Marsh&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145115" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 14th, 2010 at 3:23 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This was a beautifully written post Bored in Vernal. As I’ve said before, a lot of times I read what you have written and don’t have much meaningful to say, but want you to know I appreciate what you have written.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h12" id="comment-145133" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;smallvoice&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145133" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 14th, 2010 at 6:45 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This posts opened my mind to something beautiful. I loved the images as well. Where does one find those?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c5 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h12 alt" id="comment-145134" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;smallvoice&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145134" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 14th, 2010 at 6:47 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Found them by clicking on the artist’s name. I have a few friends that would enjoy them. Thanks for sharing them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c6 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d14 c-h23" id="comment-145170" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Arnster&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145170" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 5:12 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The knowledge of a Heavenly Mother is crucial to a correct understanding of the nature of Deity, and ultimately to ourselves, and our eternal nature. However, there is no directive from the prophets to seek out the counterpart to Heavenly Father through prayer or any other mechanism. Of course lots of people have their own theories as to why this is the case.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c7 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h04 alt" id="comment-145217" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;candice&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145217" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 10:09 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Beautiful. I always knew there is a mother besides God the father. How else were we made in thier image? Gen 2 speaking of “being made in our image”? Anyhow thankyou for sharing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c8 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h05" id="comment-145230" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Angie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145230" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 11:44 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Who is “Sophia”? I’ve never heard of her…&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When I read Proverbs 8, I understand it to be that “wisdom” and “understanding” are given a feminine pronoun (her/she), and that wisdom and understanding were with God from the beginning. If we follow wisdom and understanding, that we will be blessed. Please explain why the speaker is understood to be an actual feminine person/deity?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c9 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h09 alt" id="comment-145251" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonmatters.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Bored in Vernal&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145251" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 3:57 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Angie, the Hebrew word for “Wisdom” in these verses is “Hokhmah,” which in the Greek version of the OT is translated “Sophia.”&lt;br /&gt;As I noted in the post, one explanation for these passages is that wisdom is personified and is not meant to denote an actual being. This would go along with your understanding. However, other exegesis holds that “Wisdom” denotes an actual feminine aspect of the Godhead. In some places, Sophia addresses Israel as her children and seems to wield the authority of a Divine Being.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c10 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h12" id="comment-145268" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jeff Spector&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145268" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 6:13 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Very interesting as it seems this view to be pretty much a Gnostic view almost bordering on Greek Mythology. And while you can find a Kabbahist view on the term, “Chakh’mah” as a feminine attribute of God, this is pretty much a Greek, Hellenistic view. And even though the Proverb is a very beautiful piece of prose, it is a bit if a stretch to associate this as if an actual person. Jesus uses this term wisdom multiple times (11X, 56X total NT) in the new testament and while it is a feminine word, never once refers to it in a manner other than wisdom itself. It appears in the Old Testament and Apocrypha 256 times.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Definitely not a Hebrew view.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c11 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h14 alt" id="comment-145286" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Arnster&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145286" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 8:45 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;You can recognize “Sophia” as a female name, it means wisdom, coming from the (frenchisized) Greek root “sophie” which is where we get “philosophy” (literally love of wisdom) and “sophisticated” (“full of wisdom” although the meaning has been altered somewhat, I’m sure you can see the connection), “sophistry” and “sophomore” and I would imagine a few other words.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c12 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d16 c-h16" id="comment-145407" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Angie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145407" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 16th, 2010 at 10:46 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thank you!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c13 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d18 c-h10 alt" id="comment-145715" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Manuel&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145715" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 18th, 2010 at 4:34 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Very good post, I loved it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;As a Gnostic enthusiast, I agree very much with your point of view.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Early Christian writings that were influenced by Gnostics acknowledge the wisdom in having a femenine compliment to divinity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In the allegoric book Pistis Sophia, Sophia, or the wisdom of God is personified as a feminine divinity and the consort of Christ. She comes to earth where she is hurt and kept captive and later rescued by Christ, thus one underlying message is that the wisdom of God was sent to earth but was lost and kept captive due to the blindness of humankind, but was once again released when Jesus comes and restores the lost wisdom.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In fact, this is often the message of the Gnostic view of the events that transpired in the garden of Adam and Eve. Eve made it possible for Adam to find “Sophia” and thus helped the couple become discerning and divine. Therefore it is often said among Gnostics that Eve was the vessel of knowledge and light, and was conceived by God’s eternal wisdom (Sophia), thus Eve is Sophia’s messenger, and it is because of her that Adam becomes like God.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thank you for posting this. These elements of Sophia and the feminine divine found in the Old Testament give even more meaning to the works of the early Christian Gnostics, therefore I really like these verses.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thanks for posting!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I have always cherished these Old Testament&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c14 c-y2010 c-m09 c-d01 c-h12" id="comment-148079" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Tina&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-148079" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Sep 1st, 2010 at 6:58 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Great post!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;ol id="pinglist" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f6f7f8; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; font-size: 1.2em; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;li class="pingback c1 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d15 c-h15 alt" id="comment-145288" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 40px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 7px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 7px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.the-exponent.com/2010/08/16/virtual-oases-9/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Virtual Oases |&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="pingtype" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Pingback&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;on&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/14/sophia-of-the-proverbs/#comment-145288" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 15th, 2010 at 9:46 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-4082444916932469927?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/4082444916932469927/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=4082444916932469927' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4082444916932469927'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/4082444916932469927'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/08/sophia-of-proverbs-and-feminine-divine.html' title='Sophia of the Proverbs and the Feminine Divine'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-1183269939318151543</id><published>2010-08-05T08:26:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:16:15.461-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Discussing the Temple Initiatory from a Faithful Female Perspective (#2)</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-momron category-temple tag-temple y2010 m08 d04 h22 alt" id="post-12384" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Posted on&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/"&gt; Mormon Matters&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;5 Aug 2010&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I recently had my temple recommend renewed and I’ve been thinking about the temple initiatory for women and wishing I could discuss it from a faithful, feminist perspective. Unfortunately, there are some obstacles which stand in my way of doing this. Number one, of course, is the proscription from discussing certain sacred aspects of the temple. I’m a bit more liberal than many in talking of my temple experiences. I think there are certain parts in the temple which we are clearly told not to discuss, and I’m willing to draw the line there. But can we talk about the initiatory?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span id="more-12384" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/c51.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" border="0" class="alignright" height="460" src="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/celestial_sl.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 30px; margin-right: 30px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px; width: 250px;" width="280" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Most Mormons won’t talk about&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;anything&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;remotely associated with the temple. Even among other endowed members.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;So bringing up any of my wonderings on this subject with fellow Latter-day Saints will be met with resistance.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Next obstacle is my physical distance from the nearest Temple. &amp;nbsp;I currently live about two hours away from the nearest Temple. &amp;nbsp;There were some times in my life when I lived so far away that I could only attend once a year. &amp;nbsp;But even when I live close enough that I can go frequently, it’s not easy to find someone with whom I can discuss my concerns while sitting around the Celestial Room.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The quiet, meditative setting of the Celestial Room is not always conducive to a robust investigation of the sort I am contemplating. I yearn to talk about the 2005 changes to the initiatory ordinance. I loved doing initiatories before the changes, and I found a lot of spirituality, intimacy, and symbolism have been removed. I’d like to talk about these things with a faithful LDS woman who misses this as well, but isn’t about to lose her recommend over it. I’d like to find someone who isn’t freaked out by the presence of large tubs of water in early SLC Temple ordinance rooms and the liberal pouring of consecrated oil from large horns over the crown of the head. But I’d want her to be feminist and knowledgeable enough to also discuss the differences between the male and female versions of the pre-2005 ordinance and their implications for feminists. We’d talk about the words “having authority,” “under proper authority,” and “now authorized.” We’d discuss esoteric, mystical, symbolist, and romantic approaches to the initiatory. We’d speak of the importance of ritual and what, if any, priesthood is exercised by women ordinance workers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/200px-.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" border="0" class="alignleft" height="287" src="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/200px-.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 30px; margin-right: 30px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px; width: 200px;" width="200" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Do you think I can hold out any hope for such a discussion? Must I always hold the sacred/secret deep within a cavern in my heart, never to see the light of day? Or do you think that Mary Ellen Robertson might be able to arrange a Friday night Sunstone temple session, complete with discussion period in the upper Assembly room, as a special part of this year’s Symposium?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I can always dream…&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Discussing the Temple Initiatory from a Faithful Feminist Perspective"&gt;45&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;45&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Discussing the Temple Initiatory from a Faithful Feminist Perspective”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d04 c-h22 alt" id="comment-143695" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;cadams&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143695" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 4:52 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;My big question feminist right now about the endowment is the identification of the individual in the scalloped seashell in the Salt Lake Celestial room. Is it an unknown woman, or is it Christ? (&lt;a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1dSBe3Fg-lg/SP9V33hXXLI/AAAAAAAAAOU/jJctbKeRrS0/s1600-h/Aphrodite.JPG" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1dSBe3Fg-lg/SP9V33hXXLI/AAAAAAAAAOU/jJctbKeRrS0/s1600-h/Aphrodite.JPG&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;These commentators seem to believe it’s a woman, but without verification.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonprophecy.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturn-epic-mythmaking.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;http://mormonprophecy.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturn-epic-mythmaking.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http://grandpaenoch.blogspot.com/2009/03/artifacts-and-temple-3-cherubim.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;http://grandpaenoch.blogspot.com/2009/03/artifacts-and-temple-3-cherubim.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01" id="comment-143704" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Andrew&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143704" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:14 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Huh, I thought there was a temple in the Vernal area.&lt;br /&gt;As for the 2005 changes, the most obvious thought for me was convenience (especially given that most people administering temple ordinances are old and arthritic), and this matches the “remain seated” addition. The missus suspects other motives as well.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mom said that my uncle said that when he went through the temple for the first time back in the 60s (so take this with a grain of salt) that there were no shields, so hygiene became an issue.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;as for not repeating (and opinions will vary): we covenant to not reveal specific things there, and we are reminded of the sacred nature of what is done there. But what happened in Gethsemane and Golgotha was sacred too, and we discuss that to build faith.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01 alt" id="comment-143707" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Geoff @ A&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143707" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:21 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When I was HP group leader I tried to arrange such a discussion group with the Temple Pres. for my group to ask questions. Temple Pres said no. Not sure what you can achieve just discussing it with like minded soul except support.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01" id="comment-143709" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://rainscamedown.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SilverRain&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143709" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:25 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Let me know when you’re next in Utah, and we’ll make it a date.&amp;nbsp;&lt;img alt=":D" class="wp-smiley" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial !important; border-color: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-style: initial; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial !important; border-width: initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c5 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01 alt" id="comment-143710" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://rainscamedown.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SilverRain&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143710" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:26 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I probably should have said “Salt Lake”, not just Utah.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c6 byuser comment-author-stephen-marsh c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01" id="comment-143711" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen Marsh&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143711" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:33 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Geoff @ A — interesting.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Andrew — that is what I thought as well, since there has been some discussion of same.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;SilverRain — this would make an excellent part of a women’s retreat.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c7 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01 alt" id="comment-143712" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonroth.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Ulysseus&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143712" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:44 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Yes, I’m agree with Andrew that the prohibition on temple talk, isn’t as prohibitive as you suggest. I’m a completely pre-2005 soul, so no clue about the changes (although it sounds like some attempt to limit women’s claims to priesthood authority), but the entire women/priesthood issue is maddening. This isn’t limited to the temple, but it is pretty clear from pronouncements of various church presidents and general authorities that women are priestesses in the hereafter. If that is the case, then shouldn’t it just be a matter of time before the women are given their rightful place? Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, and all.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Dream away, BIV, but why not discuss all those things? “esoteric, mystical, symbolist, and romantic approaches to the initiatory.” [Hugh Nibley did it all the time.]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c8 byuser comment-author-jeff-spector c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h01" id="comment-143714" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Jeff Spector&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143714" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:50 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I really see no reason that faithful, temple-going Latter-day Saints cannot discuss the Temple in an appropriate setting, not necessarily in the Temple. Seems to me, that the prohibition is about the old “casting pearls before swine” bit. On the other hand, one has to be sufficiently mature to know, when, where and how to do this.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BIV, you are.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c9 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h03 alt" id="comment-143725" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.rickgrunder.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Rick Grunder&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143725" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:03 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;RE: #1 {“Mom said that my uncle said that when he went through the temple for the first time back in the 60s (so take this with a grain of salt) that there were no shields, so hygiene became an issue.”}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;There must be solid documentation somewhere to clarify this interesting detail. When were shields first employed? On a personal basis, I know that shields were in use in the Salt Lake Temple by September 1967. I also remember my mother making her own shield when I was a boy in the 1950s.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The following excerpts trace an element of similar practice – preparatory to other forms of ritual – back at least to 1826 in the Northeastern United States, quoted here from William Morgan (1774-1826),&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Illustrations of Masonry, by One of the Fraternity, Who Has Devoted Thirty Years to the Subject. “God said, Let there be Light, And there was light.” Printed for the Author, William Morgan.&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;(N.p. [but Rochester, New York], 1827; first published 1826 at Batavia, New York, and published in some thirty editions by 1830,) . . .&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“The candidate . . . is divested of all his apparel, (shirt excepted) and furnished with a pair of drawers kept in the lodge for the use of candidates; . . .” p. 18.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“The candidate, as before, is taken into the preparation room and prepared in the manner following; All his clothing taken off, except his shirt; furnished with a pair of drawers; . . . ,” p. 45&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c10 byuser comment-author-mormon-heretic c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h03" id="comment-143728" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonheretic.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Mormon Heretic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143728" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:19 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;yes, I too would like to hear about ‘no shields.’ I have never heard that before.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;biv, I like the 2005 changes. there is much less ‘yuck’ factor IMO. yes I agree that it is less symbolic, but I think it is easier for temple workers, and more pleasant for patrons. I view it as a win-win. but you have to understand that I really don’t like symbolism in the first place, so that affects my opinions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;if the gospel is supposed to be simple (we hear that in the church a lot) then the symbolism makes the gospel less simple IMO. I don’t think most people understand the symbolism anyway, so for most people, the loss of symbolism has little effect on their temple experience. but I understand that for those that enjoy symbolism, it can feel like a loss.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c11 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h04 alt" id="comment-143732" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;living in zion&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143732" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:29 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I like all the changes to the whole temple experience since the first time I went through in 1987. Bring on the nicer, gentler stuff and leave out the yuck.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c12 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h04" id="comment-143736" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;rachel&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143736" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:52 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;To any nonmember reading this, it sounds bizarre– “leave out the yuck”??? What the heck are you doing in there??&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When I took out my endowments a few years ago, women made reference to how much easier things are now. BiV, I would love to have those conversations, too. I know when I go, I’m in the Celestial Room minutes, not 10s of minutes. Maybe the thing to do is to plan to go with someone who is like-minded, and plan to allow the time to have those conversations. Is there really no one out there who is on your wave-length?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c13 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h05 alt" id="comment-143739" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;FireTag&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143739" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 11:16 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“To any nonmember reading this, it sounds bizarre– “leave out the yuck”??? What the heck are you doing in there??”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Even more bizarre is the notion of “shields”?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I’ll never know. I’ll never want to know. Sad.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c14 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h05" id="comment-143743" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This Guy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143743" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 11:40 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;To a not-yet-endowed convert, let me assure you it does sound bizarre.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This is the first mention I’ve ever heard of temple ceremony outside the context of its relation to Freemasonry. As a Mason, I think (once again, as a member of less than one year) the Church should adopt a method of discussion of its ritual roughly similar to the Masonic one: roughly discuss the stories and lessons of the temple without being quite so open as to reveal anything truly secret. This would encourage discussion and meditation on temple symbolism, and create a large-scale community similar to the Masonic one, from which I’ve drawn a lot of inspiration and enlightenment.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c15 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h05 alt" id="comment-143746" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ted&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143746" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 11:58 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;My mission president happened to be a temple recorder for quite a number of years before his tenure as a mission president and once told all of us missionaries what exactly you could discuss and what you couldn’t. Born in Vernal, it’s about what you expected – except for the things we are expressly told not to talk about, everything else you can talk about.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;He says the main reason why we have such difficulty talking about the endowment or the initiatory is because we simply don’t understand it as members. After all, a member can talk about baptisms for the dead very easily, right? They’re just baptisms, you know, done in proxy for people who died before they had a chance to be baptized. Easy peasy. But because so many members don’t really understand what the endowment or initiatory is about, they struggle to talk about it or are uncomfortable with the ordinances themselves and so they don’t really like to talk about it because they don’t really get it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I think another reason people don’t like talking about it is because of the whole “don’t even go near the line” mentality. Like Jeff said, it’s also a no casting pearls before swine thing. But my mission president talked openly in meetings with other missionaries and in sacrament meetings about the covenants you make and other things about the temple, and so I think it’s all right as long as you’re respectful. However, my parents don’t believe me so I don’t bring up any discussion about temple ordinances around them. :p&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c16 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h05" id="comment-143747" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ted&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143747" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 11:59 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Gah, meant to write Bored in Vernal instead of Born in Vernal.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c17 byuser comment-author-mormon-heretic c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h06 alt" id="comment-143748" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonheretic.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Mormon Heretic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143748" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:12 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;ted, not even all temple workers understand things the same way. my mission pres was a temple sealer. he flat out said that women that administer initiatory ordinances absolutely hold the melchizedek priesthood, but are only supposed to use it inside the temple. when I asked a temple worker inside the celestial room, she disagreed and said women act under the direction of the melchizedek priesthood, but don’t actually hold the melchizedek priesthood. so there is a difference of opinion among temple workers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;this whole idea of ‘it’s not secret, it is sacred’ is really confusing for members. when we go to the temple, we are explicitly warned that we should only talk about temple ordinances within the walls of the temple. those that take the advice most literally decide it is just easier not to talk about anything than accidentally disclose something they shouldn’t.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c18 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h06" id="comment-143750" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Consider this...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143750" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:28 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I am unfortunately bored in Vernal, Utah also. I came here due to health reasons and could no longer work. So my support system was here. I have not been active for a very, very long time because of simple questions that could not be answered by my instructor in the MTC. Like “why do the temples have Masonic symbols on the exterior of the temple?” Why are the “secret” handshakes, ect inside of the temple the same as the Masons?” I am not saying anything is wrong with the Masons, but why if it is the one and only true church would you mimic another? Also, I have never believed that God would punish one faith over another, meaning there are so many wonderful people who believe in God and Jesus Christ, who are good, honest people. I choose not to believe that they are left out, until ‘you’ teach them in the hear-after.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Unfortunately, it has been my experience that members of the church are extremely judgmental, when they should be teaching by example and showing love to “all” people on this earth. Many lessons could be learned by the various cliques that have taken over the church. #1-Judge not, lest you be judged. #2- This isn’t a fashion show, or an opportunity to show off your status with money in a house of God. #3- The women and men of the LDS faith have proven to be the worst at “gossip”, in the state of Utah, at least.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;There is so much more to what you should be doing with your lives, rather than making sure so-n-so didn’t see you drink a coke. Everyone knows the “church” owns over 1/2 of the stock for Coke anyway. Which brings me to another thought, why do you teach out of guilt, or threats that “you won’t make it to heaven”. It is not your decision nor your right to say such a thing to another who has been given free will to choose. What if…..you were to take a moment to actually think for yourself, really think for yourself, and ask God yourself? There has been a lot of good that the church has done, right along with the other churches of the world.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I would recommend you all take some time and read “Conversations with God”, and you might have a very reverent eye-opening experience. If your not a reader, rent the movie. I cried all 7 times I watched it, because the Spirit of God speaks to us in a phrase, a song, a person, a movie, even through a view of beauty. He speaks to each of us, not just one man. I am not pushing this book alone, you can find thousands of books out there that will open your eyes, rather than keep you as a “sheeple” following the crowd to fit in. I dare you to try it….&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c19 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h06 alt" id="comment-143751" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Holden Caulfield&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143751" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:30 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“Bring on the nicer, gentler stuff and leave out the yuck.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This one for old-timers–Every now and then I tell my wife that I am going to get a “Pale Ale” (beer) t-shirt to wear. Boy, does she get mad. I bring it up with her every so often, just to see her nostrils flare. Never fails.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c20 byuser comment-author-mormon-heretic c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h06" id="comment-143752" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonheretic.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Mormon Heretic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143752" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:32 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;the church owns half the stock of coke??? I think snopes.com debunked that years ago.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c21 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h06 alt" id="comment-143756" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Consider this...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143756" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:58 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“Snopes”? the site that filters out what is okay to say about our current Administration to protect it? Yeah, yeah, I know, “Snopes” is the new Book of Mormon for a lot of you. All I am saying is, read, do some research for yourself, open your eyes and your minds. Just because your Stake Pres said it doesn’t mean it is so…use your mind. Clearly, I opened a can of worms, but you can look at it in a good way or you can clamp down the blinders and choose not to see. I apologize for offending you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c22 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h07" id="comment-143760" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thomas Parkin&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143760" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 1:06 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;There is a lot of things I miss from the 1980s Endowment. I miss the penalties, which were real vehicles for me. I also miss a lot of the language surrounding the Christian Minister. I wish they could have taken the minister out, but left some of that language in. (I totally approve of the changes in language surrounding woman’s covenants, and wish it would go farther in the same direction!) I think these moves reflect realities in the world that can’t be avoided. The new initiatories have lost something in intimacy, but gained in that same area, and are also much faster.&amp;nbsp;&lt;img alt=":)" class="wp-smiley" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial !important; border-color: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-style: initial; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial !important; border-width: initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I think that discussions can be had about the temple. But I pretty much keep it to people who I really trust personally and spiritually, and then talk about them in a reverent way in a private place. Basically my father and basically late at night in his house.&amp;nbsp;&lt;img alt=":)" class="wp-smiley" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial !important; border-color: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-style: initial; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial !important; border-width: initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;&amp;nbsp;~&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c23 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h07 alt" id="comment-143768" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Martin&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143768" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 1:50 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BiV, it would be absolutely awesome to have a Sunstone session in a temple chapel. I love hearing from faithful, thoughtful, and informed people, and a session like that would teach me so much. It’d be like a dream… oh, wait…&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c24 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h08" id="comment-143770" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This Guy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143770" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 2:07 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#15,&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Freemasonry is not a church, but it is one of the better repositories of early Christian practices. If you were leader of a Church with the objective of restoring Christ’s own, wouldn’t you end up borrowing pretty liberally from said repository? As far as the grips being the same, from what I’ve seen in various “exposés”, they’re not even close.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I’ll admit that the Western Mormon experience may be different, but I’ve never gotten the idea that church is a “fashion show”. On the contrary, I’m usually an island of polo in a sea of white oxford.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Half of a publicly-traded company would almost certainly mean a controlling interest. We’d hear about it if the Church “owned” a cola company (by the way, I’ve heard the exact same rumor about Pepsi). Also, “the new Book of Mormon” being a Democratic Party puff piece doesn’t show a lot of consistency with Mormon demographics.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c25 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h08 alt" id="comment-143771" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://rainscamedown.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SilverRain&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143771" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 2:18 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Wow, “Consider . . .”. I thought about responding to some of what you said, but I’m too confused, even after sifting through the gross generalizations and faulty “facts”.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c26 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h08" id="comment-143775" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Holden Caulfield&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143775" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 2:43 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;re: consider this…..Sorry but the church can’t own more than 1/2 of Coke stock. I own 57% of it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c27 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h09 alt" id="comment-143777" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.singlemormonchick.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;singlemormonchick&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143777" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 3:03 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;my parents were very old school, and would not discuss anything about the temple. ever. in my late teen years i had read an excerpt from a book that an ex member wrote about the initiatory part of the endowment and it FREAKED ME OUT. i asked my mom about it and she gave me some pat answer about trusting Heavenly Father, etc. it didnt shake my testimony, but it kept me out of the temple for years after my divorce and there was nothing(like a jackass of a husband)keeping me away. it wasnt until a woman(much younger than me)who i was friendly with, but didnt know well, asked me why i had never went. she had just gone through for the first time for her impending sealing and when i searched for words to diplomatically excuse my absence, she flat out said “its the initiatory, isnt it?” she went on to tell me how she had heard things and she was freaked out too, but they had changed stuff and it was the best part. she didnt give me details, but she told me enough to ease my anxiety. i made an appointment almost immediately, got my recommend and went through for the first time when i was 39 years old. i love going to the temple and do the initiatory work whenever i can. i agree that there needs to be a more open forum to discuss the temple and what to expect. if i was close by, i would definitely meet you in the celestial room and have that robust conversation in quiet tones appropriate for the temple.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c28 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h11" id="comment-143797" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;FireTag&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143797" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 5:45 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;MH:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The first time I attended a classified lecture at Johns Hopkins, I was terrified, because I didn’t know enough to know what was classified and what wasn’t. Sounds like a lot of LDS are in the same position.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c29 byuser comment-author-ralph c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h11 alt" id="comment-143798" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ralph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143798" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 5:45 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I have no problems discussing the temple and most of its ordinances in the right time/place/context. Outright discussion online with the possibility of non-believers heckling/etc I don’t think is right (that’s not happening here, I understand that), but in a private meeting or one to one where it will be treated with respect, even if its with a non-believer I see nothing wrong.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;My SP told me about the endowment ceremony when I was preparing for my mission because there was no temple prep class at the time. All we did was take a walk down his street while he told me about the temple and interviewed me for a recommend.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;On my mission there was an ex-LDS member who was paid by the state church to publish information about the LDS church. He wrote a book called (in English) ‘How I got away from the Mormons’ and he went into great detail about the temple and what happens within. When a priest got wind of one of its parish members learning about the LDS church they contacted headquarters and got a lot of pamphlets and this book to give to the person. Well I came up against this once and so we got the Bishop in to help. He sat there talking about the endowment ceremony in full, because the person already knew about it from reading the book. That’s where I got my opinion about discussing the temple outside of it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The big thing too is that with the internet, its all out there anyway. So while its sacred, not secret, if people already know about it, why not discuss it. You have not divulged anything really, someone else did that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c30 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h12" id="comment-143804" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Rigel Hawthorne&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143804" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 6:18 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I had an institute teacher who taught a graduate student class once and reported having organized a class trip to the temple where they had a discussion about what each piece of ceremonial clothing represented. I don’t know where within the temple the group was able to do this, and he never got around to taking our class there, although I wished I could have had such an experience.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I you rent the movie September Dawn, you will see the initiatory ordinances depicted in brief dramatization much like BiV talked about in the OP sans shields, although with through a blurry cheesecloth and with spooky dim lighting. I assumed that there was some attempt at period accuracy, although it was not produced by moviemakers who were favorable to the church.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I do miss the older version of the initiatory ceremony as it felt like a more complete blessing experience, perhaps the most spiritual moment of my own endowment experience. I understand the changes, but the fact that there is necessity to make the changes is somewhat of a sad reflection. It’s kind of like the feeling you get when your read signs in the lockers of the LA Temple advising you not to leave valuables in the locker. You would hope that in the Temple, signs like that would not be necessary.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Firetag, I think myself and many others would be more than happy to illuminate your curiosity in a different forum! Feel free to email me.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c31 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h13 alt" id="comment-143809" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Consider this...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143809" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 7:38 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#24, I was not implying the Masons to be a church or the LDS church not to be true, what I was saying is that, “If the church cannot answer questions of mine prior to serving a mission, how am I expected to answer those questions asked of me”. Also, the coke comment had to do with the “Sunday Mormon”. I haven’t mentioned any connection between the BOM and Democrats, I simply said I don’t rely on Snopes, like the whole world seems to, because of some errors, just like Wikipedia. People tend to get excited when they get their feathers ruffled. I already apologized to that person and I extend it to anyone else.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;All of my family are strict Mormon, I understand the word of wisdom, and all of the rules, etc…but if I chose to drink a coke, instead of 5 Hershey bars, according to my family, I was in the wrong. Eating healthy is the word of wisdom. You can’t justify the meal you just ate that would feed 4 people, followed by 1/4 of a cake, and look me in the eye and tell me I broke the word of wisdom because I chose a coke.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;All in all, my comments were made to simply open your eyes to what you are missing in your personal life. This is brought on because I am drawn to Energy Healing. Since I had to have an MRI, I now see my deceased Grandmother frequently, (who quite often saw her ancestors while working with her genealogy), among other things. Now, besides the fact that I drink Coke, once in a while, “I see dead people”, to quote the movie, so I am looked on as more of an outcast as before. But, why is this?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;To bring it back to topic, why is the symbolism so close to Masonry? Can someone answer this question? Or will we avoid it again?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c32 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h14" id="comment-143815" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.rickgrunder.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Rick Grunder&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143815" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 8:51 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#24 (“As far as the grips being the same, from what I’ve seen in various “exposés”, they’re not even close.”)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Masonic grips illustrated in the widely-published exposés in the United States around 1830 include examples that were, in fact, identical to those of the later Mormon endowment rituals, as documented more than amply in my&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mormon Parallels: A Bibliographic Source&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;(2008). Much of the attendant language is equally striking in its similarity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c33 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h15 alt" id="comment-143816" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonheretic.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;mh&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143816" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:20 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;the symbolism is so close to masonry because joseph smith was a mason. he said he was refining masonry to a higher form. if you go to mormonstories.org, john dehlin interviews greg kearney, a master mason and temple mormon. they discuss the history of masonry and mormon temple worship. it is really interesting.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c34 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h16" id="comment-143823" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;FireTag&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143823" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:39 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Rigel:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Thank you for the offer, but I really meant it when I said that I would not want to know. That is not meant with the slightest disrespect. To the contrary, there are things about personal covenants that should not be shared, be those covenants marriages or temple rites.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Consider me a brother-in-law, but I’ll honor the privacy of your covenants in spirit and fact.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c35 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d05 c-h17 alt" id="comment-143829" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;SUNNofaB.C.Rich&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143829" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 5th, 2010 at 11:27 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;yuck shields makes me think about Star Trek.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c36 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d06 c-h01" id="comment-143848" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This Guy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143848" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 6th, 2010 at 7:44 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#31, if you’ll notice I responded to your question right after the part you got defensive about. Masonry involves a lot of early Christian practice. Joseph Smith was wrong about the literal origin of Masonic ritual (all Masons back then believed the part about its origin in King Solomon’s Temple), but the truth (I believe) justifies his use of it more than the legend he took as truth. I agree and then some with your unease at the Church’s defensiveness about its relationship with Freemasonry; it should be something the Church is proud of.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I have as many issues with the modern Church’s interpretation of the Word of Wisdom as you do , but I have even more issue with your repeated stating of the demonstrably false. Claiming that Snopes censors information unrelated to the subject is not a defense of your ridiculous assertion that the Church owns half of whichever cola company, and claiming that Snopes is “the new Book of Mormon” after you’ve charged it as a Democratic Party puff piece is making a connection between the Book of Mormon and the Democrats. This isn’t defensiveness or thin skin; it’s a desire to see honest debate be, well, honest.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#32, I haven’t seen said exposés and I can’t really go into too much detail without breaking an obligation I have taken and another I hope to take fairly soon, but I can honestly say that among the grips I’ve seen in passing on the Internet and the ones I’ve taken in my own lodge, only one even bears a passing similarity. There may be some similarity in the Royal Arch degrees, but I haven’t seen those (and neither did Joseph Smith).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c37 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d06 c-h02 alt" id="comment-143853" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;jmb275&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143853" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 6th, 2010 at 8:11 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/quote.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 10px 0px; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; color: #333333; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 50px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This one for old-timers–Every now and then I tell my wife that I am going to get a “Pale Ale” (beer) t-shirt to wear. Boy, does she get mad. I bring it up with her every so often, just to see her nostrils flare. Never fails.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Awesome! Seriously, I wonder how many people know what you’re referring to. I admit to not being an “old-timer” but I got it anyway.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c38 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d06 c-h02" id="comment-143859" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.rickgrunder.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Rick Grunder&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143859" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 6th, 2010 at 8:27 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;#36 {“#32, I haven’t seen said exposés and I can’t really go into too much detail without breaking an obligation I have taken and another I hope to take fairly soon, but I can honestly say that among the grips I’ve seen in passing on the Internet and the ones I’ve taken in my own lodge, only one even bears a passing similarity. There may be some similarity in the Royal Arch degrees, but I haven’t seen those (and neither did Joseph Smith).”}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In deference to people’s obligations that you mention, I will not insert early nineteenth-century illustrations, here, of the very specific Masonic grips in question (or various other gestures and texts), but anyone who will glance even briefly at the rabidly-published antimasonic almanacs of the Northeastern United States from the late 1820s-early 1830s will recognize numerous elements that were identical to those in the later Mormon temple liturgy. To imagine that Joseph Smith would not have seen these things would be like supposing that kids in the 1990s had never seen a picture of a space ship. Such a stance incurs a burden of proof not incumbent upon those who own original editions of these pamphlets, and who have made every effort to make them available to Latter-day Saints who care to see them, for decades.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c39 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d06 c-h06 alt" id="comment-143896" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This Guy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-143896" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:00 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I did not mean that Joseph Smith wasn’t familiar with the Royal Arch degrees, just that he had no participation in them. I apologize for the lack of clarity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c40 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d07 c-h11" id="comment-144064" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;wayfarer&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-144064" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 7th, 2010 at 5:05 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BiV,thanks for this,and I’d love to chat,but I wouldn’t know what to say as i understand next to nothing about my temple experience.It has always seemed to me,and this might be helpful to those thinking of going but spooked by this thread,that i covenant to nothing more than i did at baptism,so other than that it just seems to be an elaboration of ceremony.You can go all Nibley about it,but that’s like saying all things point to God,which they do if that’s what you’re looking for.Other than that,I’m none the wiser,but i like to be on the right side of obedience,and I like the idea of families being together for eternity,although i have no doubt that there are plenty of people more able to live in a celestial manner than we who have not had the opportunity or inclination for making these covenants.But it would be good to talk,because I hate feeling that I have been missing something for all these years.Whenever i have broached these conversations,it quickly becomes clear to me that no-one seems to really know a lot more than me,but they often think they do.They just don’t seem to me to be asking the same questions.So,headaches all around,and I’ve stopped asking.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;But as much as i feel it would help to talk more,I can’t help but be convinced by some of the comments here that we can’t be relied upon as human beings to have this conversation in a sacred manner,and I do accept this stuff as sacred.So now ,i can’t even comfort myself with the fantasy that we could actually have an edifying conversation around this.But I liked your post BiV,and maybe you’re different.And reading this,maybe I’m too proud.I certainly ask too many questions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;‘Just keep swimming…’&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c41 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d07 c-h17 alt" id="comment-144082" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Andrew&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-144082" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 7th, 2010 at 11:00 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I suppose I have a different view of the temple ordinances. I see them as an open-ended experience; a chance to actually develop your own ideas about something that may or may not jive with someone else’s view (and that doesn’t have to, for that matter). They also provide a chance to get personal revelation about things, or at least try to do so. In that way they’re fundamentally different than any other experience in the Church; the closest we can come on a regular basis to having God himself teach us. And, as pupils, we can experience the same kind of spiritual growth that Joseph Smith went through as he learned about personal revelation. That, to me, is really the point of temple worship. I think it’s fine to discuss different aspects of the temple ceremonies, but for the most part I really do believe it’s all about developing your own understanding, and through that understanding you develop a relationship with God.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c42 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d08 c-h08" id="comment-144137" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;wayfarer&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-144137" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 8th, 2010 at 2:15 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Andrew,my best answer ever.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c43 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d13 c-h09 alt" id="comment-144997" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Kathy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-144997" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 13th, 2010 at 3:15 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;There is a time and place for these kinda of questions, in the question and answer session when your Stake does a Stake Temple day with a chapel session. That is when it is appropriate to ask all these questions. My Husband worked in the Temple before we met and while we were dating, I know that at least my Stake encourages those who are able to go to the Temple to ask your questions then.&lt;br /&gt;The reason that most people chose not to talk about anything about the Temple outside of the Temple is because they would rather side on caution than saying too much.&lt;br /&gt;I think as far as the Temple ceremony to be similar to the Masonic ceremony we have to remember that we are not a “New” religion we are simply a restoration of things that use to be here on Earth but may have been lost or changed due to the priesthood being taken from the Earth. I don’t know much about the Masons however it would not surprises me that this ancient ceremony that has been passed down for hundreds of year and no one is completely sure of its origins anymore.&lt;br /&gt;I love the Temple and I know that I will not completely “get it”, however I love the symbolism and what it could stand for. Some things are better left as mystery’s for me.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c44 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d16 c-h09" id="comment-145367" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;LDS Scot&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-145367" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 16th, 2010 at 3:07 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Temple ceremonies are like Freemasonry in another regard… everyone knows what goes on in there, but people who have been there are not allowed to discuss it!!!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;My problem with the temple is that you’ve no idea what’s going to happen until you go there… That freaks many people out.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c45 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d18 c-h19 alt" id="comment-145768" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Will&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/05/discussing-the-temple-initiatory-from-a-faithful-feminist-perspective/#comment-145768" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 19th, 2010 at 1:13 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;To #14 – read the book of Moses.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-1183269939318151543?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/1183269939318151543/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=1183269939318151543' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1183269939318151543'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/1183269939318151543'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/08/discussing-temple-initiatory-from.html' title='Discussing the Temple Initiatory from a Faithful Female Perspective (#2)'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7712344257470303195</id><published>2010-07-29T08:31:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:16:43.459-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Passing the Mantle</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-momron tag-old-testament-sunday-school y2010 m07 d28 h22 alt" id="post-12279" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;OT SS Lesson #29 -- &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"&gt;originally posted on &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/"&gt;Mormon Matters&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;The prophet Elisha is introduced for the first time in&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_kgs/19" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;1 Kings 19&lt;/a&gt;. &amp;nbsp;Elijah has recently had his encounter with the 400 prophets of Baal and the still small voice of God on Mt. Horeb.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;On his way from the mountain to the wilderness of Damascus Elijah finds Elisha plowing in a field.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;He passes by him and throws his mantle over Elisha.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;And scripture says that Elisha arose and followed Elijah, and became his servant. &amp;nbsp;Elisha doesn’t receive another mention until the end of Elijah’s ministry — when Elijah’s mantle falls from him as he is translated and is taken up by Elisha — and one can’t help but wonder about the relationship between the two in the interim. &amp;nbsp;How was Elisha prepared to succeed Elijah, and what relevance does this story have to succession in the Church today?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span id="more-12279" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In the manual, our&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&amp;amp;locale=0&amp;amp;sourceId=8015c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&amp;amp;vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;SS lesson&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;discusses in depth how this story relates to succession in the Presidency of the Church, and how this “mantle” is transferred when the prophet dies. &amp;nbsp;But I think the story is also fitting for application on the ward level, where callings from Nursery Leader to Bishop are regularly passed around. &amp;nbsp;As we follow and serve under our ward leaders, we take upon ourselves the learning role of an Elisha. &amp;nbsp;In the Books of 1st and 2nd Kings, we may not have the details of how Elisha was prepared for his calling. &amp;nbsp;But&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_kgs/2/9-10#9" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;2 Kings 2:9-10&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;is instructive. &amp;nbsp;Immediately before Elijah is taken up into heaven he asks Elisha: “Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee.” &amp;nbsp;And Elisha replies, “I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Ask what I shall do for thee&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Here the Elijah figure, or the one being released from the calling, is willing to train his or her successor. &amp;nbsp;He or she passes on the needed materials, explains what the calling entails, and makes themselves available as a source of information during the transition period. &amp;nbsp;I think it is important to see each calling as a legacy which is being passed down and improved upon each time a new member steps up to fill the position. &amp;nbsp;Holders of each calling should be willing to mentor others to succeed as their replacement.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;When Elisha asked to receive a “double portion” of Elijah’s spirit he was not seeking a ministry twice as great as his master’s but he was using cultural terms derived from inheritance law to express his desire to carry on Elijah’s ministry. Inheritance law assigned a double portion of a father’s possessions to the firstborn son [see&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=deut+21:17&amp;amp;do=Search" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Deut. 21:17&lt;/a&gt;]. Elijah’s response that&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“if thou see me&amp;nbsp;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;when I am&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee” left the gift Elisha requested in God’s hands. Elisha does see Elijah being taken up by the chariots of God at the Jordan River and God does fulfill the request — Elijah received the “double portion” = the power and authority of his master. &amp;nbsp;This is demonstrated by Elijah’s performance of 8 works of God while Elisha accomplishes 16.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Elijah’s 8 miracles:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Elijah-fed-by-Ravens.a.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-12291" height="202" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Elijah-fed-by-Ravens.a-260x300.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 70px; margin-right: 70px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="Elijah-fed-by-Ravens.a" width="175" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;table align="center" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;tbody style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;1. Shut the heavens (drought) and opened them (rain)&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;1 Kings 17:14, 41-46&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;2. multiplied flour and oil&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;1 Kings 17:7-16&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;3. raised the widow’s son from the dead&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;1 Kings 17:17-24&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;4. defeated the prophets of Baal&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;1 Kings 18:16-40&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;5. was fed by ravens&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;1 Kings 17:2-8&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;6. destroyed Ahaziah’s soldiers with lightning&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;2 Kings 1:9-13&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;7. parted the Jordan River&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;2 Kings 2:8&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="370"&gt;8. was taken to heaven in God’s chariot&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="162"&gt;2 Kings 2:9-18&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Elisha’s 16 miracles:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elisha-rembrandt1.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="size-full wp-image-12296 alignright" height="352" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elisha-rembrandt1.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; display: inline; float: right; margin-bottom: 2px; margin-left: 70px; margin-right: 70px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px;" title="elisha rembrandt" width="480" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;table align="center" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;tbody style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;1. parted the Jordan River&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 2:14-15&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;2. purified water&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 2: 19-22&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;3. cursed attackers who were then savaged by bears&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 2: 23-25&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;4. caused a flood to foil the Moabites&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 3: 14-25&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;5. caused miraculous flow of oil for the poor widow&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 4: 2-7&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;6. gave fertility to the woman of Shunem&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 4: 8-17&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;7. raised a child from the dead&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 4:32-37&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;8. purified poisoned soup&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 4:38-41&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;9. multiplied loaves to feed a large crowd&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 4:42-44&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;10. healed Naaman of leprosy&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 5: 1-19&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;11. cursed Gehazi with leprosy&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 5:20-27&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;12. made an iron axehead float&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 6:1-7&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;13. struck the Aramaeans with sun blindness and then cured them&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 6: 15-23&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;14. predicted the end of a famine&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 7:1-20&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;15. prophesied the death of Ben-Hadad and the rise of Hazael&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 8:7-15&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="410"&gt;16. predicts Israel will defeat Aram 3 times&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" valign="topalign=&amp;quot;left&amp;quot;" width="132"&gt;2 Kings 13:14-19&lt;span style="font-size: small; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Each of us has likely experienced numerous changes in Church callings over the years. &amp;nbsp;I have had some interesting feelings both in receiving and in giving up callings. &amp;nbsp;I’ve discovered that we need mentors — wise and faithful guides, advisers, or teachers — to apply an unseen, affirming influence and positive energy as callings change. &amp;nbsp; The mentor’s spirit can promote healthy relationships in every presidency, classroom and organization. &amp;nbsp;There must be a willingness to share our ministry.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;This sharing comes from a place of deep satisfaction and peace about the work we have done over the years.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;The work hasn’t always been easy and there may be a certain reticence to let go of hard won accomplishments.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;But the mentor’s spirit reminds us that it is not so much a letting go as it is a passing on.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elisha-watching-elijah-depart.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-12285" height="330" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elisha-watching-elijah-depart.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" title="elisha-watching-elijah-depart" width="500" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Note especially what Elijah says next:&amp;nbsp;&lt;strong style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;“Thou hast asked a hard thing.”&amp;nbsp;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;It’s hard both to give up and to accept a calling. For me, one of the hardest releases I experienced was that of Seminary teacher. I held the calling for several years. I put a lot of time and energy into it, and I came to self-identify as the Seminary teacher. I wanted to be the best one ever. I wanted to affect the lives of my students and I wanted them to love me. When a new teacher was called, I didn’t want him to be as successful as I was. To this day I have a hard time when a new Seminary teacher is called in the ward. It is just as hard to accept new callings with grace and equanimity. Some people feel inadequate, doubting they can measure up to what has been done by their predecessor. Some accept with pride, thinking that they can do a better job than has been done in the past. Neither attitude takes full advantage of the mentoring process.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;As Elijah and Elisha continued walking and talking by the Jordan River, a chariot of fire and horses of fire took Elijah up into heaven in a whirlwind.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;em style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Both Elijah and Elisha experienced the presence and the power of God in that moment.&lt;/em&gt;&amp;nbsp;I believe that we can experience the same as we struggle with the difficult issue of passing on and accepting Ward callings.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Passing the Mantle"&gt;7&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;7&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Passing the Mantle”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 byuser comment-author-stephen-marsh c-y2010 c-m07 c-d28 c-h23 alt" id="comment-142644" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen Marsh&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142644" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 5:41 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;b style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;is not so much a letting go as it is a passing on&lt;/b&gt;&amp;nbsp;— I think you have made a great point about how we should mentor and support each other, passing the torch on of each calling.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d29 c-h03" id="comment-142657" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Martin&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142657" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:20 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I have little doubt you were a good seminary teacher.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Passing the mantle is a little different for us than it was for Elijah, because we’re not riding off into the sunset, we’re just changing roles. Not too long ago I was released from a bishopric in order to serve as scoutmaster. We had considered another man in the ward who was already working with the deacons as the natural fit, but for some reason it didn’t feel right. We actually went without a scoutmaster for a few months trying to find who the Lord would call, while the guy who we’d considered for the call did his best to cover the vacuum. When finally it became clear the Lord’s finger was pointing at me, it was a little hard. I loved serving in the bishopric. I couldn’t help but think in my mind “Gee, Lord, that other guy would have been a great scoutmaster — he certainly can do anything I can do.” Guess who was called as the new counselor? Yep. That guy. The same guy I’d worked so closely with as the counselor over the youth. And he’ll be great. It’s me I’m worried about. Scoutmaster is a little overwhelming compared to bishopric counselor! I guess he’ll just have to mentor me, as I did him.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d29 c-h04 alt" id="comment-142663" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;st1305&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142663" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:20 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;BIV,&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;That is an excellent post.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d29 c-h06" id="comment-142675" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Margaret&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142675" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 12:28 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Do you think the double portion was possibly just that – the inheritance of Elijah’s power and authority. The bible has recorded only so many acts by Elijah compared to Elisha but that doesn’t mean that’s all Elijah did. After all, He is the one who held the keys of sealing given to Joseph Smith.&lt;br /&gt;BTW, I love your idea of mentoring.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c5 byuser comment-author-mormon-heretic c-y2010 c-m07 c-d29 c-h07 alt" id="comment-142680" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://mormonheretic.org/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Mormon Heretic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142680" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 1:52 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;biv, I love the analogy with ward callings. I do wonder how we are supposed to feel when we replace someone that either quit coming to church, or obviously put little effort into their calling, especially when the bishop indicated the previous person was a bit direlict in their duty.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c6 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d29 c-h09" id="comment-142690" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Mark Gibson&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-142690" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 29th, 2010 at 3:12 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;A very thoughtful post; thanks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;From time to time I hear comments about ward callings being “pre-ordained” and, because of that, one should never refuse a calling. Some elements of that are probably true, but I still think it puts a lot of pressure on a member, especially a convert looking at their first calling. I remember attending a new members gathering as part of stake conference. The Bishops were encouraged to issue callings to everyone having been a member for as little as two weeks. Some are eager for that type of service, others not so. In fact, it may play a part in some converts quickly going inactive.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c7 c-y2010 c-m08 c-d01 c-h18 alt" id="comment-143192" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;cornponebread&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/29/passing-the-mantle/#comment-143192" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Aug 2nd, 2010 at 12:45 am&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Apart from my mission, I have felt the mantle of a calling on other occasions, but most strongly the last time I was Gospel Doctrine teacher for my ward. It was my 3rd or 4th time in this calling, but this was the time I really noticed it. My eyes were opened, both to understanding of the scriptures and also to the world around me. It is difficult to describe the clarity of perception I experienced while I had the calling. After several years I was given another calling, but they couldn’t find another willing Gospel Doctrine teacher for almost 6 months, so I pulled double duty. The problem was that I had been released from that calling and set apart for the new calling, and I could tell the difference! It was much more difficult to prepare lessons and to draw from my experiences and perceptions. And when they did get a new teacher, she was great. It was like a relief to me. The mantle had been passed, although we weren’t necessarily both there when it happened. It had been almost dropped in the intervening months and the new teacher picked it up more than it fell on her.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/2035557836022548249-7712344257470303195?l=kolobiv.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/feeds/7712344257470303195/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2035557836022548249&amp;postID=7712344257470303195' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7712344257470303195'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2035557836022548249/posts/default/7712344257470303195'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2010/07/passing-mantle.html' title='Passing the Mantle'/><author><name>Bored in Vernal</name><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='22' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_1OZixgeCpgE/R3OGZF2Dp0I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/nrGoluMGLoc/S220/BiV.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-205709668986022794</id><published>2010-07-24T11:06:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2010-09-28T13:17:41.896-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Should Mormons in the Diaspora Celebrate Pioneer Day?</title><content type='html'>&lt;div class="hentry p1 post publish author-bored-in-vernal category-momron tag-pioneers y2010 m07 d24 h09 alt" id="post-12203" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 5px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;div class="entry-content" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: justify;"&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Posted at &lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/"&gt;Mormon Matters &lt;/a&gt;on July 24, 2010&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;It has only been in recent years that I have slowly become aware that not every convert to the Church shares&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2007/07/to-be-pioneer_22.html" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;my deep identification&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;with the Mormon pioneers. I have loved the epic story of the trek to the Salt Lake Valley. I appreciate its archetypal connotations. My heart thrills with the stories of the pioneer heroes and heroines, and I consider each of their stories part of my legacy as a Mormon, though my LDS heritage begins with myself.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;In the last few years there has been some grumbling by members who don’t have Mormon pioneers in their genealogy that it annoys them to celebrate the July 24th holiday, a commemoration of the day the first company of pioneers entered the Salt Lake Valley. I think partly to appease these voices, there has been an emphasis on “modern-day pioneers”–those who lead the way for others to follow and who blaze trails in other ways than traditionally recognized.&amp;nbsp;&lt;span id="more-12203" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;There’s a relatively new Primary song, “&lt;a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;amp;locale=0&amp;amp;sourceId=eef455faa5cab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;amp;hideNav=1" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;I Can Be a Modern-Day Pioneer&lt;/a&gt;,” there are more&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="http://ldsmediatalk.com/2009/07/22/special-pioneer-video/" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;talks given by General Authorities&lt;/a&gt;&amp;nbsp;on the subject, and there are articles such as the latest Mormon Times article “&lt;a href="http://mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/church_history/?id=9728" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Pioneer Journeys of a Different Era&lt;/a&gt;.” &amp;nbsp;There is a sudden dearth of Pioneer Day activities in wards outside of Utah, and in our ward last Sunday the only talk which mentioned pioneers emphasized modern-day contributions rather than those who crossed the plains.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I just want to register a caution to those who wish to move away from the traditional veneration of these honorable forebears. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;a name='more'&gt;&lt;/a&gt;I want to remember their devotion to a faith that meant more to them than life itself. Social scientists often point to the Jewish culture and theorize that the reason it survived through so many years and the scattering of the people to so many different places was the very persecution which caused them to band together in small groups, and their longing remembrance of their homeland.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/SuperStock_1746-1560.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" border="0" src="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/SuperStock_1746-1560.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; float: left; height: 275px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 30px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; width: 200px;" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;big style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down,&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song;&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;Sing us one of the songs of Zion.&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;How shall we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land?&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth;&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.&lt;br style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /&gt;(Psalm 137)&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/greater_love.jpg" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;img alt="" border="0" class="alignright" height="335" src="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/clbruno/greater_love.jpg" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-top-width: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: inline; float: right; height: 268px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 30px; margin-right: 50px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 4px; width: 200px;" width="250" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;This Psalm is a poignant lyrical device for recalling the story of Israel’s exodus from Egypt and its arrival in the promised land. It acts as an earnest reminder both to the exiled Israelites and to later biblical readers of the importance of the promised land for the celebration of the Jewish faith. Now that we Latter-day Saints experience little real persecution, and the importance of our history and sacred places is beginning to wane, are we in danger of losing some valuable aspect of our culture? Are we losing our Psalms, our legends, our traditional customs and stories?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I’d like to hear what our readers think. Do you feel a connection to the Mormon pioneers? Or do you think the holiday is unnecessary, especially to LDS of other cultures living in many different countries of the world? Should we attempt to graft new converts in to the Utah Mormon pioneer heritage, or should we transfer our loyalties to “modern-day pioneers?”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="entry-comments" style="color: #a4997b; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: right;"&gt;&lt;a class="commentslink" href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/#comments" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/comment.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;" title="Comment on Should Mormons in the Diaspora Celebrate Pioneer Day?"&gt;42&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Comments&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="clear" style="clear: both; color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comments" style="color: #1a1812; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 30px; position: relative; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;h4 style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 2.4em; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;&lt;span id="comments" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;42&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;Responses to “Should Mormons in the Diaspora Celebrate Pioneer Day?”&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;div class="metalinks" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentsrsslink" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/themes/k2/images/feed.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; height: 16px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/feed/" style="color: #999999; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-top: 2px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Feed for this Entry&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;ul id="commentlist" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px; position: relative;"&gt;&lt;li class="comment c1 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d24 c-h09 alt" id="comment-142066" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Stephen M (Ethesis)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/#comment-142066" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 24th, 2010 at 3:23 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I do not feel a great connection, but I do feel a connection to the culture, which is important to me.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c2 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d24 c-h10" id="comment-142073" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;E.D.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/#comment-142073" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 24th, 2010 at 4:16 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I do not have any Utah pioneers in my family, but feel a connection to the pioneers on the level of sacrifice for one’s beliefs. However, I think the holiday is unnecessary outside Utah. In fact, I didn’t even know it existed until I was in high school, because it just wasn’t celebrated where I grew up (near Syracuse). We probably put a lot more importance on April 6th due to our proximity to Palmyra.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;We had Pioneer talks last Sunday. The first was a man from Kenya who came to the U.S. and converted. The second focused on people who were the only members in their families. The last was about the Trek, but more about the celebration it should be that such a high percentage made it to Salt Lake Valley alive and not such a focus on the deaths.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;As time passes and the church spreads, there will be more and more converts who should be included as pioneers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c3 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d24 c-h10 alt" id="comment-142076" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;Martin Holden&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&lt;a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/24/should-mormons-in-the-diaspora-celebrate-pioneer-day/#comment-142076" style="color: #777777; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;" title="Permanent Link to this Comment"&gt;Jul 24th, 2010 at 4:34 pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="comment-content" style="font-size: 1.2em; line-height: 1.8em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;div style="margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;I have lived in the British Isles all my life and am not aware of any celebration. An occasional ward or stake may have the odd pioneer activity but it is more normally regarded as an Utah or American day. In the ward I am in we did not note the day at all.&lt;br /&gt;I have a website devoted to the nineteenth century converts from my island most of whom emigrated but the church’s current history here only goes back 50 years. We are the pioneers and most of us would be uncomfortable with celebrating that. Pioneers in the church are associated with America and we are not Americans&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li class="comment c4 c-y2010 c-m07 c-d24 c-h12" id="comment-142083" style="list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: decimal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 10px;"&gt;&lt;span class="commentauthor" style="font-size: 1.5em; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: -1px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"&gt;&lt;a class="url" href="http://www.tangled-me.blogspot.com/" rel="external nofollow" style="color: #2277dd; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none;"&gt;Jo&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="comment-meta" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; display: block; float: none; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 15px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 2px;"&gt;&
