tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post4221213980967667432..comments2024-01-17T03:54:39.225-05:00Comments on Hieing to Kolob: Adultescence and my Continuing Obsession With the FLDSBored in Vernalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-59816930638578940252008-05-22T18:21:00.000-04:002008-05-22T18:21:00.000-04:00John, I am not sufficiently acquainted with the FL...John, I am not sufficiently acquainted with the FLDS to give a definitive answer, but my informed opinion is that were there enough younger men who were willing to live the group's religious standards, there would be less plural marriage to older men.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to remind you that the state of Texas has yet to show that any laws have been broken. No one has been charged with the commission of a crime or even a misdemeanor.<BR/><BR/>As to your last question, you are setting up a straw man. Such an alleged 14-year-old girl would be married to an older man who could provide financial security and sister wife/wives who would give emotional support.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-43739585484746966352008-05-22T17:06:00.000-04:002008-05-22T17:06:00.000-04:00BiV: I'm all for people believing whatever they w...BiV: I'm all for people believing whatever they want. It's when they *act* in a way that breaks our laws, especially laws who's purpose is protecting powerless people from powerful people, that I have a problem.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the group should be compelled to conform to my moral standard. I think they should be compelled to conform to society's *legal* standard.<BR/><BR/>And you're not facing the question of where the extra boys go at all. Why is that? I know for a fact that you're a person who's willing to think things through and figure out whether something makes sense. What is it about this situation that's making you take longer?<BR/><BR/>RWW: What's inherently wrong about allowing 14 year olds getting married? In general, they're not in a position to be self-sufficient, empowered, or making long-term plans. Or legally adults.<BR/><BR/>Let me ask you a question. Have you ever met two 14 year olds who you felt were in a position to marry each other and live self-sufficiently as a family unit?John Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148138073618817344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-25061992063603224292008-05-21T22:03:00.000-04:002008-05-21T22:03:00.000-04:00That's the real question. But I'd also like someon...That's the real question. But I'd also like someone to explain what's inherently wrong with a 14-year-old getting married.RWWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15681600553808093793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-8478792883352027412008-05-21T15:05:00.000-04:002008-05-21T15:05:00.000-04:00John, I don't feel torn on this issue. I believe ...John, I don't feel torn on this issue. I believe a certain way, and I recognize the right of others to believe another. I don't think we can put a moral value on the intrinsic "rightness" of either view. If we couldn't accept the rights of others to hold different religious beliefs, we wouldn't have the marvelous pluralism that is America.<BR/><BR/>Can you explain to me why you think this group should be legally compelled to conform to your moral standard?Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-8116080162013120782008-05-20T16:14:00.000-04:002008-05-20T16:14:00.000-04:00BiV, you're making me puzzled. On one hand, you'r...BiV, you're making me puzzled. On one hand, you're saying you don't think that it's OK. Then you ask who we think we are to oppose God when he made girls able to get pregnant at that age. And you ask if maybe we're mistaken in telling FLDS members that they're wrong in allowing it.<BR/><BR/>I'm reading that as you being pulled in at least two directions. You sound torn, as if thinking "It's not OK for my kids, but it might be for theirs." Forgive me if I'm reading too much into that.<BR/><BR/>You mentioned teaching young girls who are in plural marriages, but never explicitly say that you think it is or isn't OK. That causes me more confusion.<BR/><BR/>That 44% of men unmarried in the general population (20-45) might be correct (no citation over at FAIR). But in the general population, no one is saying marriage is the key to salvation or exaltation.<BR/><BR/>You need to re-read the FAIR article. They propose that arraigned marriage can approach 100% efficiency for marrying off -women-, leaving several unmarried men (they propose the same number that would have been unmarried in any case).<BR/><BR/>So how can 100% of the women be married, some in plural marriages, and still have all men who want to remain do so and get married?John Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148138073618817344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-55687278338136900722008-05-20T03:33:00.000-04:002008-05-20T03:33:00.000-04:00John, I'm getting frustrated with you. Did you rea...John, I'm getting frustrated with you. Did you read my post???? I don't believe a 14 year old is ready for a sexual relationship, but apparently some of the FLDS do (however limited the practice may or may not be). How do you or I know our beliefs are correct on this?????? Why did God or nature or whatever you believe in make a 14-year-old (or younger) capable of having a child????? Who are we that our beliefs take precedence over God/nature?????? Perhaps you can tell me just why our beliefs on this issue are superior to theirs. Perhaps you can tell me why this justifies wresting hundreds of children from their mothers and their homes. Oh, and btw, the "girls I deal with" are Saudi Arabian girls from the upper-class sector, many of whom are married at extremely young ages and/or living in polygamous homes.<BR/><BR/>Re the "Lost Boys," an analysis of the numbers over at FAIR shows that currently in the United States 44% of males aged 20-45 are unmarried and less invested in and productive to society than their married counterparts. In contrast, 19th century Mormons and today's fundamentalist polygamists operate at close to 100% efficiency for marrying all of their single members. There are other issues that should be explored concerning polygamous societies and the young single men. Perhaps I will blog about this at a later time.<BR/><BR/>An FLDS member I am in contact with tells me that any young men who desire to remain in the community and marry are given wives. If you look at the YFZ Bishop's List, the young men at the ranch are all married to women close to their age. And since there is no courtship, but marriages are assigned, there would not be any "competition."Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-7384688591345243062008-05-20T02:14:00.000-04:002008-05-20T02:14:00.000-04:00I've heard the exact thing you've written. Young ...I've heard the exact thing you've written. Young boys "voluntarily" leave the community after exhibiting "rebellious behavior." <BR/><BR/>I'm wondering how you imagine this community works. They have polygamy. Young men coming of age are competing with older men for the young women coming of age.<BR/><BR/>Do you imagine that there are bunches of young, single men who are in the community who never get married? Or that for some reason, many more women live to marriage age than men?<BR/><BR/>They're reported to believe that optimally a good husband has three wives. If only one man in ten actually has more than one wife, that's at leas one in ten men that can't be married, right? Each woman who is married to a man who is already married means there's a man who won't get married in the community, right?<BR/><BR/>How does the math of plural marriage work out in your mind?<BR/><BR/>Is it really OK for girls to be married off at 14? Were any of your daughters or their friends or any of the girls you deal with ready to enter into a sexual relationship when they were 14?John Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148138073618817344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-60334448082121361752008-05-19T15:43:00.000-04:002008-05-19T15:43:00.000-04:00John, I'm saying that it might be OK to be on eith...John, I'm saying that it might be OK to be on either end of the spectrum.<BR/><BR/>Also, I have discovered a lot of information about the "Lost Boys" contradicting what we are hearing in the media. It appears that several years ago there was a group of boys who voluntarily left the community after exhibiting many rebellious behaviors such as drug abuse, etc. An ex-member paid them to testify in court, saying that they were abandoned, and I believe they won quite a settlement. I question their motives, and I question whether there are any boys that have not voluntarily left because they do not wish to live by the moral standards of the community. There may be two sides of this story, too. <BR/><BR/>I continue to be appalled at the biased treatment this group is receiving in the press and in the courts.Bored in Vernalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-71768123861487119432008-05-19T15:20:00.000-04:002008-05-19T15:20:00.000-04:00BiV, you're implying that your fables of self-indu...BiV, you're implying that your fables of self-indulgence and subjugation are the only choices available. There's lots of middle ground there.<BR/><BR/>And I take issue with the idea that the community is stable when that depends on having so many of it's young men leave.John Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148138073618817344noreply@blogger.com