tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post7711454766013009878..comments2024-01-17T03:54:39.225-05:00Comments on Hieing to Kolob: Both Sides Now---Legal Ramifications of YFZ CaseBored in Vernalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14016611721544251941noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-44392802309699888232008-04-24T08:56:00.000-04:002008-04-24T08:56:00.000-04:00I am not a Mormon but I get so angry at the mob me...I am not a Mormon but I get so angry at the mob mentality- here is what I wrote today on a New York Times Blog-<BR/>All this generalization, as if all 437 children have been abused, if any. Nothing is proven- what happened to American's ability to think critically, instead of having a mob mentality lead by the feeding frenzy of mass media and bloggers. Where is the blogger who will stand up for due process and innocence until proven guilty? Did the love of our constitution go by the wayside with the Patriots Act? Abuse does not occur in any higher percentage in any particular church or in any particular community. it is everywhere. And do not forget that the marriageable age in Texas was only recently raised to 16 years from 14 years, so before you go riding your merry bandwagons to the lynching, maybe you should wait for due process, if it occurs....Queitsch Hofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072027532920541123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-52745951183800795082008-04-22T12:42:00.000-04:002008-04-22T12:42:00.000-04:00I'm not a lawyer, but it completely blows my mind ...I'm not a lawyer, but it completely blows my mind that a complaint of abuse in one household could be considered probable cause to issue a warrant to take the kids away from the neighbors. To me it looks clear that their constitutional rights have been massively violated, and I agree completely that this is (not only scary for everyone's rights, but) hugely counterproductive for creating a situation where insular communities will cooperate with local authorities to stop those cases of abuse that do exist.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-15908277782109102072008-04-20T23:41:00.000-04:002008-04-20T23:41:00.000-04:00“Is it legally justified to remove ALL women and A...“Is it legally justified to remove ALL women and ALL children from their homes based on a warrant for the arrest of ONE man and in looking for ONE young woman described by the 9-1-1 caller as an abused victim?” <BR/>Absolutely. If the police go into a house to ‘rescue’ one abused child and while inside find 100 more kids who have possibly been abused or are in danger of abuse then fo shizzle they’ll take ‘em all. Better safe than sorry right? If it turns out there are parents who disagree with the young ‘marriages’ and wouldn’t farm off their children until they’re legal then great, give them their kids back. However, if everyone there says they’ll do anything the prophet asks, and the prophet is known to ask for something illegal, that’s the problem-- It’s the mentality of the religion. <BR/><BR/>“Is it legally justified to order DNA evidence from all families based on one allegation?”<BR/>Yes it is. If you cannot obtain truthful ages and correlations between the members because of a cover-up and lack of records, you need to create the records to find out who belongs to who. The sad part is, the women there are allegedly covering up child abuse by saying the young babies belong to THEM instead of their teenage children. So the police have an obligation to find out the truth.<BR/><BR/>“Is religious indoctrination currently a legal justification for removal of a child from a family?” <BR/>They’re not being persecuted for their religion. Everyone’s known they live there and that they’re polygamists for years. Even if the State disagreed with their practices they’ve been left alone until now. <BR/><BR/>”Do you think the families are being presumed guilty until proven innocent?”<BR/>Of course not. But in an abuse case like this you can’t just leave the kids with the parents until you find out what’s going on. Especially in this situation when it seems highly likely that pregnant teenagers would be moved to other compounds so the authorities don’t find them. Once they’re proven innocent the kids can go back. <BR/><BR/>Is the media biased? Yes. Have the courts done something illegal yet? I don’t think so. Are they being stern and thorough, yes as they should be when it’s feared that 400+ children are possibly in an unhealthy environment. Does my heart go out to the FLDS families… absolutely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-80897856719115400912008-04-20T23:28:00.000-04:002008-04-20T23:28:00.000-04:00Under different criminal circumstances (like a dru...Under different criminal circumstances (like a drug bust) this may be true according to the allegation). In the case of child abuse, the burden of proof to get a warrant is extraordinarily light due the nature of the crime: children. Therefore, even if it was based on a false phone call (which looks very likely) it won’t be thrown out of court. In cases of child abuse allegations I think most of us would agree that false postitives being looked into are preferable to overlooking abuse due to high standards afforded other situations.<BR/><BR/>“No complaining victims exist and the original abuse allegations were fraudulent, pumped up in the media by anti-polygamist activists.” And “No pregnant girls were found at the YFZ Ranch who were under 16 (the legal marriage age in Texas, with parental consent).”<BR/><BR/>I’ve seen interviews where women confess that 16 year old girls have been married off, but say it’s very rare. Just because no one is complaining doesn’t mean it’s not illegal. Even if the 16 year old girl says I’m ok with it, it’s still illegal. Some argue that it’s ok because in Texas very young girls can be married off with parental consent, which is true, but FLDS “marriages” are not legally binding marriages but rather religious ceremonies unlike LDS marriages; that’s why your argument founded on the “16 yr old marriage age with parental consent” is flawed. A lot of people say, “Why aren’t they arrested for being polygamists?? That’s illegal right?” Right, but are not ‘true’ polygamists because according to the state of Texas, the man only married his first wife and the others are common wives, which could carry implications of bigamy, but that’s another topic. <BR/><BR/>“Angie Voss from the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has testified that the supposition that abuse may happen some day in the future justifies the removal of over 400 children of both sexes and all ages from their environment.”<BR/><BR/>That’s right. If children are in eminent danger of abuse they can be removed legally. I think we’d all agree that fathers and mothers that are ok with child abuse raising their sons and daughters to believe it’s ok is definitely grounds for removal under this rule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-78419918923454921412008-04-20T16:55:00.000-04:002008-04-20T16:55:00.000-04:00My dad is a retired superior court judge, and the ...My dad is a retired superior court judge, and the situation with the FLDS reminds me of many dinner-time conversations we had about other high-profile cases. Dad has always cautioned us not to jump to conclusions based on the limited, and usually distorted, facts presented us by the media. He's encouraged us to wait for all available evidence so we can make a more balanced judgment. In this case, it is definitely going to take time to sort out what really went on at the ranch.<BR/><BR/>With Dad's advice ever-present in my head, I have tried very hard to keep a balanced perspective on all of this. I have witheld my judgment about CPS, because I wanted to see what kind of evidence would come forward to support their actions. So far, I have not seen enough evidence to justify such drastic measures. I do not doubt that some abuse and/or under-age marriage has probably taken place on the compound. But as has been mentioned, the guilt of one does not make the entire community guilty. Abuse can often happen to our friends and neighbors without us being aware that it is going on. I just don't see enough probable cause to justify a full-scale raid like this. <BR/><BR/>I do believe they had cause to go into the ranch and perhaps seize documents in an effort to determine whether under-age marriages are occurring. But in my opinion, those children were removed from their homes unlawfully. Of course, I am waiting to see what other evidence comes to light, but as of right now, I feel the rights of the FLDS have been seriously violated.LaurieSuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14194145153030429261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2035557836022548249.post-79332032222118514742008-04-20T16:12:00.000-04:002008-04-20T16:12:00.000-04:00BiV - I read your blog almost every day. Your pos...BiV - I read your blog almost every day. Your posts are well researched and thought provoking. I am not a lawyer, but I do work for a law firm. We've discussed this situation and no one can come up with a situation in which the 4th ammendment wasn't violated in the original search. This alone seems to indicate that all of the children should be returned. The constitution always 'trumps' local laws. If it didn't then what would be the point of having it? <BR/><BR/>Personally, while I don't agree with the FLDS, this action sets a very dangerous legal precedent, one that I don't think our country wants to go down.Angiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17946941626649779414noreply@blogger.com