OT SS Lesson #21 -- Originally posted at Mormon Matters
When we lived in Saudi Arabia a few years ago, I obtained a faculty position in the fairly newly-formed department of Health and P.E. at a university which was strictly segregated by gender. The women’s side of the university operated independently, with our own female custodians, technical staff, professors and administration, and very little oversight from the male president. Our department consisted of five women, and we made all decisions collectively, with no titular head. After the first semester I was there, one of our staff meetings was dedicated to the question of whether we should have a department head. Being the newest addition to the faculty, I had little say in this decision, but I did bring up the point that we had successfully administrated the department jointly, and I questioned the necessity of one department head. It would completely change the group dynamics that we had experienced as a body of women removed from a patriarchal hierarchy and which I very much enjoyed. The reply from all of the rest of the women, though there had been no problems thus far, was that “you HAVE to have a leader,” that one person MUST be in charge of any organization.
At the time I was struck by how much this assertion resembled the one I have heard from many Mormons justifying the hierarchical, patriarchal system in place in the Church, both within the institution and within our individual families.
The argument seems to be that harmonious resolution of difficulties is impossible without one leader to make final decisions. I am not entirely sure I agree that no other model beside the “one-leader rule,” or what I will here call the “kingship” model is viable in administrating a successful community.
The argument seems to be that harmonious resolution of difficulties is impossible without one leader to make final decisions. I am not entirely sure I agree that no other model beside the “one-leader rule,” or what I will here call the “kingship” model is viable in administrating a successful community.
The kingship model of administration appears to have been particularly desirable throughout history. It seems obvious that strong personality types would desire to set up a system of governance where they were in charge of making all the decisions. But the scriptural record and our OT SS Lesson #21 show that groups of people also wish to configure their communities under the supervision of a king. 1 Samuel 8 recounts the story of the Israelite people, dissatisfied with judges and prophets, clamoring for Samuel to get them a king. Their reasoning is found in verse 20: they want to be like the other nations, they want one strong leader to judge them, and they desire to be under the protection of a military commander who will lead them in battle.
Passages in the Book of Mormon also describe this desire of the general population to set up a monarchy. In Mosiah 23 the people want Alma to be their king because of their great admiration for him. In 3 Ne 7 a league of tribes attempt to establish a kingship in order to overthrow the tribal system of government then operating. In Alma 51 there is also an attempt to overthrow the current leadership and inculcate a kingship, inspired in part by pride and aspirations to nobility. In each case in the scriptures where there is a desire to crown a king, it is denounced as contrary to the ideals of freedom. Several reasons are given in these passages as to why kingship is considered malapropos:
- It is a rejection of divine rule in favor of human rule (1 Sam 8:7)
- A king would allocate human and natural resources to his own advantage (1 Sam 8:11-17)
- One man should not think of himself as being above another; kingship gives those of high birth unfair power and authority (Mosiah 23:7; Alma 51:8)
- Not all kings can be trusted to be just (Mosiah 23:8,13,14)
- A king can oppress people and lead them into iniquity (Mosiah 23:12)
- A monarchy is not a free government (Alma 51:6)
Now, apparently hierarchical priesthood leadership in the Church and in LDS homes is considered to be very different than kingship as presented in the scriptures. I can see how this would be so if there were a clear line of communication from a Heavenly Being to each designated leader. However, the nature of inspiration and communication from on High is nuanced enough to make this an insufficient rationale. Observe how each of the reasons given above can be applied to hierarchical priesthood leadership as practiced in the Church:
- It is a rejection of divine rule in favor of human rule. When it is not always possible to tell if the leader is receiving revelation, the leader imposes his will upon the others in the system. The others then obey human directives rather than attempting to gain their own revelation of the divine will.
- A human being is naturally inclined to direct resources to his own advantage. With one hierarchical leader this is always a danger. When a group of people act together, or when there are checks and balances in the system, this temptation is not as prevalent.
- Priesthood leadership gives those who have been born male unfair power and authority. This is true regardless of the fact that many good men who hold the priesthood will not take advantage of their position.
- Not all priesthood holders can be trusted to be just. To paraphrase: “if it were possible that ye could always have just men to be your priesthood leaders, it would be well for you to have priesthood leaders.”
- A priesthood leader can oppress people and lead them into iniquity. I will not be so presumptuous as to cite examples of this. But again, this tendency is ameliorated when more accountability is built into the administrative system.
- An organization of hierarchical priesthood leadership is not a free government. Under this type of leadership, the choices of the individual can be severely limited if there is disagreement. Often a member loses legitimacy and power in the system simply for having a differing opinion than the priesthood leader.
I’m sure that there are flaws in my observations on patriarchal hierarchy and kingship, so please dive in and point them out! I think this should be an interesting discussion. How do you think kingship (as denounced in the scriptures) and patriarchy (which we all know is encouraged in Church organization) differ and compare?
BIV, I qualified that first sentence with, is designed by the Lord , b/c that is how I read the scriptures. I was not trying to describe the experience in positive terms — rather normative ones.
Aaron, I like your comment about presidencies being mini-collectives. So long as they don’t rubber-stamp the decision of the president — I think it is beneficial.
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1) first the reason for baptism is this: Baptism by immersion by one authority(which in the LDS tradition is always male) is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary to become a member of the church of jesus christ of Latter day saints. all who seek life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
*** I’m sure that there are flaws in my observations on patriarchal hierarchy and kingship, so please dive in and point them out! ***
1. the degree of power
2. the duration of power
*** (Yes, but the power to do what? Does it follow from “The Priesthood is the power of God among men,” that all leadership or direction exercised in the name of the Priesthood is actually “an extension of divine rule”? A person can have authority to do one thing, but not another.) ***
DBlock,
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Once a person enters the community of Christians by baptism, all are equal despite former distinctions. This equality should not exist merely in the Church building — where we all call each other Brother and Sister — but extends to all associations.
Vort,
If so, you need to take that up with Christ.
I don’t think that is who the offending party is.
*** “If so, you need to take that up with Christ.”
I don’t think that is who the offending party is. ***
*** I believe you are overestimating His role in restricting the rights of the priesthood on the basis of gender. ***
Vort,
Joseph Smith says that “all to whom the Priesthood was revealed” have “the Key-words of the Holy Priesthood” revealed (see Abraham Facsimile 2, Fig. 3). So, if you have had the priesthood revealed to you, then you have also had the keywords of the priesthood revealed to you, for they are one and the same.
*** On the basis that women recieve the garment, robes, and keywords of the priesthood: ***
“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.”
*** Modern LDS believe that if a president of the Churc were to try to do something contrary to the will of God, then He would kill the prophet. ***
*** Might not the Lord, in asking his servants to set up a leadership structure, leave some of the particulars to their own judgment? ***
*** Please do not engage in circular argument it really does not lead, nor does it promote discussion. ***
*** Can you think of any other “so therefore…what” options? ***
2) So therefore, you stop sustaining your leader.
3) So therefore, you kind of keep sustaining your leader, at least on the surface, but behind his back (say, on anonymous internet discussion boards), you undermine his authority and gripe and complain about his stupidity.
*** Vort, I sense some major anger issues for you here. You might consider taking some time to cool down, and if this discussion isn’t doing anything positive for you spiritually, you should consider (for your own sake) excusing yourself from it entirely. ***
*** Vort, I don’t understand “sustain” as meaning “my leader, right or wrong,” or pretending a leader is always right when he’s clearly not. ***
Vort,
DBlock,
What is it that Joseph was told in 1820? “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’ He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven.”
A Church denies agency [the power of God], although it maintains the proper outward appearances. God’s religion properly understood is a tribe or family. Families meet, but they don’t have meetings.
*** No king, no pope, and no priesthood leader can or ought to maintain power or influence by virtue of his/her office. ***
*** Vort, the issue I’m trying to cover is whether it violates covenants to “sustain,” to consider the possibility that the present exercise of Church leadership by a hierarchy of Priesthood holders, with the Priesthood limited to men, is necessarily because God wills that it be so and no other way. ***
2} Any woman who received her second anointing received her office in the fullness of the Priesthood and as a Queen and Priestes.
3) Lucy Mack Snow who shared her husbands’ calling as a Patriarch
4) Many wives of early mission presidents’ and general authorities were recognized and ordained to their husbands callings
5) Female Branch Presidents during WW11 both in the U.S and in Germany
6) Any woman who excercises spiritual gifte in the early church held position of authority recognized by both men/women even though they did not have top- down callings
First I’d like to clarify the women and the priesthood issue. Women can indeed be said to possess priesthood authority through temple marriage, endowment, or the second anointing. This has been used to greater and (now) to lesser extent since 1843. However, this does not extend to church administrative power, because women are not ordained to any office in the priesthood. There is no historical evidence that any woman in the LDS church has ever been ordained to a Priesthood office. Read more here.
*** And Vort I already know your going to have a problem with this because from your previous responses everyone else here is wrong for thinking they way they do. ***
Vort,
*** So was this unique to Samuel alone? ***
2. The addition of counselors
3. The amount of control exercised. (Can you think of any others?)
*** In practice, counselors will often agree with the final word of the Bishop even when inwardly opposed, exhibiting the type of loyalty exhibited by Vort above, that one must agree with a stated position in order to be supportive. ***
*** Can we say blow hard ***
Your first point I will concede. Although it has sometimes been my experience that counselors are reluctant to counter the inclination of their president, you are right that it is their function to counsel and advise.
The Consent of the Governed means that nothing the leader/ruler (king, pope, prophet, etc.) does is legitimate unless the people consent to it.
If the Lord attempts to assert dominion without the consent of the governed, He engages in unrighteous dominion. The same applies to the servants of the Lord.
They released a new book called,”The Rise and Fall of Modern Mormominism,” which was published by Gregory Prince
Good catch, Thomas, food for thought. I’ll be chewing on that for a while…
The Death of McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine
Unless they specifically have to do with kingship and patriarchal hierarchy…
*** I wish to strongly emphasize the devastation that occurs when sanction comes from the Church. ***
- The church is both a divine institution and a human organization. Some of the disagreement here stems from differing views about how divine it is vs. how human. I certainly disagree with Vort’s analogy of the church being like a party someone is hosting and we are all invited guests. We are also hosts at this party. We are jointly throwing the party, not just showing up. So rudeness (and lack of gratitude) as guests is vigilance (and care for our guests) as hosts. Yet I do agree that some folks do merely “show up for the party” at church and then take pot-shots at how it is run. To them I say pick up a serving tray. I also agree with Thomas that the dirty little secret is that ark-steadying is an effective catalyst to change. But the manner and tone of dissent (whether insider criticism or outsider criticism) is a huge differentiator in how effective it will be.
- The structure of the church is not abuse-proof. I’m not sure any structure can be. We have to rely on our own courage and the goodness of people to keep individuals with power from being abusive. I think our track record is fairly good, but (as I’ve said before) with 32,000 bishops, they can’t all be winners. IME, they all fail some people, and they all do great good in serving others. To expect them to have no body count is probably not realistic.
*** Vort, welcome to the site. ***
I do not believe “that a member of the Church has “no rights or authorization” to speak up if he thinks a Church leader has erred”. I can understand how you might have gleaned that from what I wrote, but that is not the case. I really can’t give you a bright line of action that I’m talking about, more like a hundred situational descriptions.
I agree with you 100% I wish I were as eloquent as you.